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Wikileaks release "PlusD": Database of 1.7 million diplomatic cables

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Re: Wikileaks release "PlusD": Database of 1.7 million diplomatic cables

#51
post #43
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny you mention this when a lot of these cables show how the US government was pressuring the Spanish government to join NATO and more recently to legislate in favor of the American media lobby. Obviously it's both parties fault, but I don't particularly like when my country and the people who are supposed to be my representatives are constantly subject to American wishes. They are definitely polite, but their…

They are operating in their own interests. I would expect Spain to also being doing this, obviously some countries hold more sway than others.

This is a common argument, that I've seen at lot here on HN as well. It boils down to "every country should act in only its own direct best interest, and assume that every other country will or should the same". If I'm not mistaken, that's called classical realism[1] by political scientists.

Now, why do things have to be this way? Are you certain that, even while we the people are perfectly capable of being nice to each other, the countries that represent us must act like immorally self-centered egoists? Why is that a justification for crap behavior?

Despite all its flaws, the EU has shown that it does not have to be this way. Countries can cooperate and look beyond their own immediate interests. I'm not saying that that's the only right way, and I'm very much not saying that the EU is doing it right, but classical realism isn't the only approach to international relations out there. Saying that something must be so "because countries should act in their own interests only" is a sloppy argument.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism_in_international_relati...

Re: Wikileaks release "PlusD": Database of 1.7 million diplomatic cables

#52

I love how they thoughtfully go ahead and provide a headline-ready name for the data set now. "Cablegate." At this point the Watergate should just assign rooms scandal names ending in -Gate instead of room numbers.

There's a nice British comedy sketch about naming everything -gate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w

Re: Wikileaks release "PlusD": Database of 1.7 million diplomatic cables

#53
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bradley Manning Admits to Being Wikileaks Source ( http://mashable.com/2013/02/28/bradley-manning-reveals-how-a... )

He was nominated for Nobel Peace Prize. Can someone explain the logic behind this? In Nobel's will it is said: > one part to the person who shall have done the most or the best > work for fraternity between nations, the abolition or reduction > of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace > congresses If Manning/Wikileaks did anything of this nature, I missed it a big way :(

Pretty sure anyone can be nominated for a Nobel prize. Simple nomination does not mean that the Nobel committee are taking that person under serious consideration.

Re: Wikileaks release "PlusD": Database of 1.7 million diplomatic cables

#54
post #52

I love how they thoughtfully go ahead and provide a headline-ready name for the data set now. "Cablegate." At this point the Watergate should just assign rooms scandal names ending in -Gate instead of room numbers.

There's a nice British comedy sketch about naming everything -gate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w

The advert I got for that YouTbue video started with a Lionsgate logo...

Re: Wikileaks release "PlusD": Database of 1.7 million diplomatic cables

#55
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bradley Manning Admits to Being Wikileaks Source ( http://mashable.com/2013/02/28/bradley-manning-reveals-how-a... )

He was nominated for Nobel Peace Prize. Can someone explain the logic behind this? In Nobel's will it is said: > one part to the person who shall have done the most or the best > work for fraternity between nations, the abolition or reduction > of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace > congresses If Manning/Wikileaks did anything of this nature, I missed it a big way :(

With Obama/EU(not a person at all) winning Nobel peace prize, its obviously just political showmanship.

Obama is a controversial because he expanded definition of combatant and expanded military reach.

EU is a state. Not a person...

Re: Wikileaks release "PlusD": Database of 1.7 million diplomatic cables

#56
post #26

I am mildly disappointed that there is not a torrent seed of the whole dataset... It might be interesting to see what sort of correlates could be inferred by a crowdsourced analysis.

It's not the whole dataset, but the cables from 2003-2010 are downloadable here:

http://cryptome.org/z/z.7z

Re: Wikileaks release "PlusD": Database of 1.7 million diplomatic cables

#57
post #12

Usual disclaimer applies for those with a clearance: by accessing classified documents on your home computers you could get yourself in serious trouble (in theory). In light of this particular situation I don't know if anyone has ever been punished but you should be careful.

Is it still classified if it's public? Doesn't a thing stop being secret automatically when it leaks out?

If it does not then I wonder why they even called it "classified" or "secret". They should call it "blargh" and avoid the confusion.

Re: Wikileaks release "PlusD": Database of 1.7 million diplomatic cables

#58
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are operating in their own interests. I would expect Spain to also being doing this, obviously some countries hold more sway than others.

This is a common argument, that I've seen at lot here on HN as well. It boils down to "every country should act in only its own direct best interest, and assume that every other country will or should the same". If I'm not mistaken, that's called classical realism[1] by political scientists. Now, why do things have to be this way? Are you certain that, even while we the people are perfectly capable of being nice to e…

>>Now, why do things have to be this way? Are you certain that, even while we the people are perfectly capable of being nice to each other, the countries that represent us must act like immorally self-centered egoists?

That is a very common opinion (yes, I'm calling you naive).

You are making an analogy between civil society (where people are nice) to states, where there is "realpolitik".

You forget that there is a violence monopoly (police etc) to keep rule of law in a society, but not between countries. Before states that enforced a violence monopoly, there were clan societies.

Simplified for clan sovieties think vikings, Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan/Iraq, etc. Not so nice... in fact, you can probably do good analogues between (especially non-democratic) countries and big clans.

(Yeah, the above is a bit simplified -- democracies are e.g. quite nice as long as the opinion at home cares. The point should be clear.)

Edit: AnthonBerg, ok it was not necessary to point out that an opinion is naive. I used to have that opinion myself, so it irritates me. (I grew up reading Swedish media; stupid and simplified world view.)

Re: Wikileaks release "PlusD": Database of 1.7 million diplomatic cables

#59
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was nominated for Nobel Peace Prize. Can someone explain the logic behind this? In Nobel's will it is said: > one part to the person who shall have done the most or the best > work for fraternity between nations, the abolition or reduction > of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace > congresses If Manning/Wikileaks did anything of this nature, I missed it a big way :(

With Obama/EU(not a person at all) winning Nobel peace prize, its obviously just political showmanship. Obama is a controversial because he expanded definition of combatant and expanded military reach. EU is a state. Not a person...

Not that I disagree with your assessment as such, but the peace prize as been award to institutions and organizations lots of times. So in and of itself there is nothing strange or unusual about the EU getting the prize.

Re: Wikileaks release "PlusD": Database of 1.7 million diplomatic cables

#60
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common argument, that I've seen at lot here on HN as well. It boils down to "every country should act in only its own direct best interest, and assume that every other country will or should the same". If I'm not mistaken, that's called classical realism[1] by political scientists. Now, why do things have to be this way? Are you certain that, even while we the people are perfectly capable of being nice to e…

>>Now, why do things have to be this way? Are you certain that, even while we the people are perfectly capable of being nice to each other, the countries that represent us must act like immorally self-centered egoists? That is a very common opinion (yes, I'm calling you naive). You are making an analogy between civil society (where people are nice) to states, where there is "realpolitik". You forget that there is a v…

You're not a state. Be polite.
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