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I'm tired

andymoore.ca

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Re: I'm tired

#51

Post by lightup88 »

flogic wrote: post #37
richforrester wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a bit of nuance, instead of "fuck off", you could try something like "I disagree, but I'm pretty tired of that conversation", and change the topic. Statement made, stupid comment brushed off, nobody got hurt. The whole "down to their level and beat you with experience" thing comes to mind.

Actually, I would argue that "fuck off" is the better response. "I disagree" implies that there's grounds for legitimate discussion when the initial remark is so far out of line there really isn't.

While I agree wholeheartedly, remember that some of the problem is the current dichotomy. The sexist ass on one hand and the too non-confrontational to say anything on the other. I'd posit that it's more useful to figure out a realistic way to get that second group to speak out--even if it's not a hearty "fuck off".

Re: I'm tired

#52

Post by erikpukinskis »

whalesalad wrote: post #40
gexla wrote: post #23

When I was in basic training for the Army, my drill instructor told us that they can turn us into soldiers but there is nothing they can do to fix 18 years of bad parenting. For me, there are certain traits and ways of thinking that I just can't tolerate. In some cases, I can tolerate those beliefs if the person is able to keep them locked up when I'm around. Usually this person is smart enough to know a certain beli…

Not sure why this comment is being downvoted. It's entirely true. The reason we've got people in the world who make comments like this is because they were raised in an environment where it was normal, and they think it's normal. We've got bad eggs in all walks of life. Society moves on and ultimately those people will suffer for going against the grain. It's a shame that ladies are so overwhelmed by this in our indu…

> When you're in a jam like that, there isn't much you can do.

Sure there is. You can switch majors. Or quietly put your resume out in a different industry. Go somewhere your superiors and peers actually give a shit about whether people are treating you horribly.

What do you think happened to all the women who aren't programmers?

Re: I'm tired

#53

Post by DannyBee »

flogic wrote: post #37
richforrester wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a bit of nuance, instead of "fuck off", you could try something like "I disagree, but I'm pretty tired of that conversation", and change the topic. Statement made, stupid comment brushed off, nobody got hurt. The whole "down to their level and beat you with experience" thing comes to mind.

Actually, I would argue that "fuck off" is the better response. "I disagree" implies that there's grounds for legitimate discussion when the initial remark is so far out of line there really isn't.

Yes. Not to mention: "I disagree" in this particular situation also has the unintended consequence of possibly implying something about whether she has nice breasts, while "fuck off" does not.

(One of the oddball cases where the "more polite" response may in fact, be more harmful)

Re: I'm tired

#54

Post by whalesalad »

tptacek wrote: post #47

Where are these people working, that saying something like "award winning tits" wouldn't be a firing offense?

In an at-will employment environment, sure, maybe. Anywhere else it's definitely not enough to be let go for sexual harassment. One remark is nothing.

But these are the kinds of people you don't want to hire.

Re: I'm tired

#55

Post by no_wave »

So I'm supposed to feel sorry for you because women are discriminated against? Why are you making yourself the focus of this story?

There's a real story of discrimination here - against the woman who was insulted.

"I’m terrified of losing friends over this." - so you're against discrimination only to the extent that it doesn't negatively impact your life. This is meaningless.

Re: I'm tired

#56

Post by erikpukinskis »

iguana wrote: post #48

That's quite a bold statement to make to someone, basically equivalent to saying, "you're nothing without your genitals". The proper response isn't "I disagree" or even "fuck you", it's a punch to the face. Seriously, if someone tells you, or your friend that they're worthless, you don't have to argue with them, you can knock them the fuck out.

Legally, you can't.

Re: I'm tired

#57

Post by jlgreco »

flogic wrote: post #37
richforrester wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a bit of nuance, instead of "fuck off", you could try something like "I disagree, but I'm pretty tired of that conversation", and change the topic. Statement made, stupid comment brushed off, nobody got hurt. The whole "down to their level and beat you with experience" thing comes to mind.

Actually, I would argue that "fuck off" is the better response. "I disagree" implies that there's grounds for legitimate discussion when the initial remark is so far out of line there really isn't.

Exactly, "Fuck off" gets the full message across loud and clear. It is also short enough that you can deliver the full message without any risk of interruption; just two syllables that can slip under the radar after you have the subjects attention.

  [looking the person in the eyes]
  "Hey [whoever]"
  [repeat as necessary until you have eye contact, at most one or two more times]
  "Fuck off."
There is no chance for them to interrupt you mid-protest to make excuses, and it sends a clear signal that the subject is not up for discussion.

Re: I'm tired

#58

Post by specialist »

I once witnessed overt racism at an event. I didn't know either party. To this day, I regret not intervening.

Perhaps I'm now over compensating, but I became "that guy" who always speaks up. That time, I was so shocked, I didn't know how to respond. Replaying it in my head over and over, now I don't need to hesitate when it happens again.

Note: you're not persuading the antagonist. Screw him. By speaking up, you're putting him and everyone on else on notice that pathological behavior will not be tolerated.

A year or two back, we had a guest female speaker at a local user group. I felt that she wasn't being given the same level of respect afforded every other speaker. People talked over her, interrupted her, etc.

So I said something. I pissed some people off. Others laughed at me.

But next time we had a female speaker, EVERYONE was super courteous. They even joked that if anyone was rude, Specialist (me) would bring on the hurt.

My advice to Andy Moore, and everyone, is to learn from his experience, and prepare for the next time, until such time that the trogs realize they can keep their sexism, racist, hatred, etc to themselves.

Re: I'm tired

#59

Post by recoiledsnake »

My reaction to something nasty like this would've have been to stand up and ask the person to leave and if they don't, just walk away. This is nowhere close to being acceptable. Where does this person work where it's acceptable for employees to say such things?

Re: I'm tired

#60

Post by noonespecial »

This is why I never use the word "fuck" in common discorse. For these situations exactly. So that when I hold up my hand and say "$name, fuck you" it goes off like a bomb and I don't have to say anything else.
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