Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail" • Hacker News Board

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#51

Post by andr » Tue, Mar 31, 2009, 8:21 PM UTC

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #3

For what it's worth, Thor Muller (Cofounder of Get Satisfaction) responded in the comments and said the wording was a mistake and would be changed immediately: "Gosh, we messed up on the wording of that badge and are changing it pronto. The wording on that badge was actually intended to explicitly state that the space was NOT OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED by the company, but that doesn’t come off at all. The idea is to encou…

That's only half of the job. They still don't offer a way to "delist" yourself from GS. Customers will still think GS is providing support for 37Signals and will be disappointed. Even if the badge says it is not an official site many people will not read it.

Some comments in the post compared this to Google, but it is not a valid comparison, as Google offers a very clear way to get yourself out of their index.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#52

Post by imgabe » Tue, Mar 31, 2009, 8:22 PM UTC

The site also hosts, without permission, company support pages for over 14,000 companies. They’ll use your logo, title the page “Customer service & support for [COMPANY NAME HERE]” and generally make it feel like an officially sanctioned place to get official support from the company in question.

If they're using your company's logo and name, and those are a registered trademark, isn't that grounds for a lawsuit? Isn't this exactly the sort of thing that trademark law is supposed to prevent? (One company purporting to be associated with another when it isn't)

I know there's a reason a I can't make my own cola, slap a Pepsi logo on it and sell it out of the back of my truck. I thought this was it.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#53

Post by mindviews » Tue, Mar 31, 2009, 8:27 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #45

mechanical_fish wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's quite bad form to publicly attack another company like this without discussing it in private first. Whereas I think a public statement of outrage is entirely justified. Take a look at the screenshot. GetSatisfaction has been collecting feedback under the 37signals name for at least a month. Those people who typed messages into GetSatisfaction expecting a response have been disappointed for a while. Anyon…

People have disagreements and confrontation all the time. Mature people resolve those potential conflicts through calm discussion. Immature people resort to attacking the people they disagree with.

On the flip side, a company like Get Satisfaction that is pushing for open dialog on support issues should be perfectly comfortable eating their own dog food here. 37Signals made what I believe to be a legitimate public complaint, Get Satisfaction made what I believe to be a quick and acceptable public response. I suppose the only loss here is that this wasn't handled on Get Satisfaction's own support site.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#54

Post by enjo » Tue, Mar 31, 2009, 8:29 PM UTC

webwright wrote: post #44

markh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the camp that says 37Signals have a valid point. Let's assume their intention is not about traffic but is to pressure GetSatisfaction into rectifying the situation as quickly as possible (and not just for 37Signals) then as harsh as the post may have been: 1) 37Signals have used their considerable influence to achieve change on behalf of many sites who have far less influence 2) 37Signals used the open model o…

Bullshit (will probably get a downmod or two for my vehemence). If Jason Fried dropped them a note saying, "I almost hit PUBLISH on the following rant-style post, but I wanted to drop you guys a line first", they would've jumped just as far, just as fast. It would've cost him exactly NOTHING to give it a day or two on private channels before posting a rant other than the time it took to find a contact form and hit "c…

Except that other folks on the web would have no idea this was going on. A private e-mail likely results in a private response (changing the wording on 37signals's get satisfaction page). A public exposure gets things changed... as it did.

The fact is that GS got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. To think that the wording on that banner was not carefully considered is just plain naive.

The 37 signals post is spot on. They where attempting to increase their conversion by strong-arming businesses into signing up. It didn't make it on to the site by accident. They changed the wording to something rather harsh, and received a commiserate reply in return.

I hope they've learned their lesson, as I rather like their product.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#55

Post by andr » Tue, Mar 31, 2009, 8:29 PM UTC

oldwesley wrote: post #25

warfangle wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My issue with the whole thing would be the fact that they use branding, logos, and so forth from a company that they have no business relationship with. Doing so devalues the brand, and should cease immediately. It would be like going into a storefront that has a UPS Package Store sign, and finding out it's just a counter with a guy that claims to be UPS customer support, but doesn't actually help you out with anythi…

Sounds like fraudulent misrepresentation/impersonation. Good luck if you try to do that with a brand like UPS. They would be down your neck in a second. A cell phone store in my neighborhood got busted by TMobile for misrepresenting themselves as official TMobile resellers. This is no different. Should be grounds for legal action.

You mean like http://getsatisfaction.com/ups and http://getsatisfaction.com/tmobile?

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#56

Post by tptacek » Tue, Mar 31, 2009, 8:38 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #45

mechanical_fish wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's quite bad form to publicly attack another company like this without discussing it in private first. Whereas I think a public statement of outrage is entirely justified. Take a look at the screenshot. GetSatisfaction has been collecting feedback under the 37signals name for at least a month. Those people who typed messages into GetSatisfaction expecting a response have been disappointed for a while. Anyon…

People have disagreements and confrontation all the time. Mature people resolve those potential conflicts through calm discussion. Immature people resort to attacking the people they disagree with.

I was surprised this 37s post didn't end with "and this is why on March 31, 2009 we filed suit against Get Satisfaction for trademark infringement and unjust enrichment". That they don't seem to have done that hurts your argument that they're being immature.

Also, calling 37signals out for going straight to the public seems like an exceptionally weak criticism in this case. GS is trading on inserting themselves into the public conversation about companies they have nothing to do with. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#57

Post by tptacek » Tue, Mar 31, 2009, 8:41 PM UTC

webwright wrote: post #44

markh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the camp that says 37Signals have a valid point. Let's assume their intention is not about traffic but is to pressure GetSatisfaction into rectifying the situation as quickly as possible (and not just for 37Signals) then as harsh as the post may have been: 1) 37Signals have used their considerable influence to achieve change on behalf of many sites who have far less influence 2) 37Signals used the open model o…

Bullshit (will probably get a downmod or two for my vehemence). If Jason Fried dropped them a note saying, "I almost hit PUBLISH on the following rant-style post, but I wanted to drop you guys a line first", they would've jumped just as far, just as fast. It would've cost him exactly NOTHING to give it a day or two on private channels before posting a rant other than the time it took to find a contact form and hit "c…

I'm surprised to hear you take this position. If I set up a website with pages for companies including RescueTime, collected security vulnerability reports, provided statistics about them, included your logo and a comment about your commitment to secure software development, I'd expect to hear from your lawyers.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#58

Post by aka » Tue, Mar 31, 2009, 8:45 PM UTC

andr wrote: post #51

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #3

For what it's worth, Thor Muller (Cofounder of Get Satisfaction) responded in the comments and said the wording was a mistake and would be changed immediately: "Gosh, we messed up on the wording of that badge and are changing it pronto. The wording on that badge was actually intended to explicitly state that the space was NOT OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED by the company, but that doesn’t come off at all. The idea is to encou…

That's only half of the job. They still don't offer a way to "delist" yourself from GS. Customers will still think GS is providing support for 37Signals and will be disappointed. Even if the badge says it is not an official site many people will not read it. Some comments in the post compared this to Google, but it is not a valid comparison, as Google offers a very clear way to get yourself out of their index.

Good, and they should never offer a way to delist yourself. GS is almost irrelevant to companies with good customer service - if your service is good enough that you discover your own GS page, then linking to your official support or monitoring it is better than delisting. BUT there are a lot of corps with dire service who like to avoid public discussion rather than deal with their poor service. A magic gag option would be right up their street, and would screw over their customers.

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#59

Post by tptacek » Tue, Mar 31, 2009, 8:50 PM UTC

It's funny that Thor@GS, in the comments, points out that they're continuing to use non-free logo images, on the auspices that they're using them the same way a Wiki would.

It is in fact not easy to use non-free company logo images on Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Logos

The tests you have to meet on WP to avoid copyvio include:

* Demonstrable encyclopedic merit (you can't just upload and tag a logo)

* Noncommercial use of the mark

* No dilution of the trademark --- ie, you can't make it appear that the company sanctioned your use of the logo.

Doesn't GS flunk all three of these tests?

Re: Jason Fried: Get Satisfaction is "awfully close to blackmail"

#60

Post by gills » Tue, Mar 31, 2009, 8:53 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #12

I think it's quite bad form to publicly attack another company like this without discussing it in private first. I see no indication that there was any communication between 37Signals and GetSatisfaction prior to this very public post. I've had this kind of thing done to me before, and I think it's really out of order. Essentially, 37Signals have decided, in this case, to trade politeness and "being good" for making…

37signals public response seems commensurate with the amount of private discussion GetSatisfaction appears to have had with 37signals about placing that badge on their fake support page.