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Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

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Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#51

Post by Argorak »

MrScruff wrote: post #49

As a non-American who occasionally attends conferences in the States, this entire incident is rather frightening. I really could not imagine a similar reaction in Europe. It reminds me of the situation last year where a British ruby conference had to be abandoned after negative publicity resulting from tweets, made by non-attending Americans about the entirely white male lineup of speakers. I don't think this cultura…

Actually, brit ruby was initially called out for calling themselves a "diverse conference", which was a very valid point: they had nothing to back that up. The resulting shitstorm was inappropriate, though, and I am very sad that it got cancelled.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#52

Post by MrScruff »

Argorak wrote: post #51
MrScruff wrote: post #49

As a non-American who occasionally attends conferences in the States, this entire incident is rather frightening. I really could not imagine a similar reaction in Europe. It reminds me of the situation last year where a British ruby conference had to be abandoned after negative publicity resulting from tweets, made by non-attending Americans about the entirely white male lineup of speakers. I don't think this cultura…

Actually, brit ruby was initially called out for calling themselves a "diverse conference", which was a very valid point: they had nothing to back that up. The resulting shitstorm was inappropriate, though, and I am very sad that it got cancelled.

Ok, that's possibly unfortunate wording but it could have referred to the attendees rather than the presenters.

At the time the complaint was that they hadn't applied quotas to the presenters which is not the same thing as discrimination.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#53

Post by Argorak »

MrScruff wrote: post #52
Argorak wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, brit ruby was initially called out for calling themselves a "diverse conference", which was a very valid point: they had nothing to back that up. The resulting shitstorm was inappropriate, though, and I am very sad that it got cancelled.

Ok, that's possibly unfortunate wording but it could have referred to the attendees rather than the presenters. At the time the complaint was that they hadn't applied quotas to the presenters which is not the same thing as discrimination.

Not wanting to discuss that in detail (again), but the initial complaint about brit ruby was okay and also accepted by the conference. The whole thing afterward was sadly very messy. This blog post sums it up quite good:

http://testobsessed.com/2012/11/diverse-discussions/

In my opinion, its not a good example, as it is a relatively civil discussion about an important topic gone horribly wrong.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#54

Post by thisone »

colabug wrote: post #11
thisone wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

private conversations are private. If she was feeling that they were being inappropriate, there are other ways to handle it. I'm not a fan of naming and shaming without trying to handle it privately first. Such as me saying I find the use of "chick" in that way to be unnecessarily derogative, but she really was out of line in my opinion.

"Private" conversations held with people in close quarters (e.g. conference keynote-esqe seating) is not a private conversation. Sexual jokes create an unnecessarily hostile and unwelcoming environment, especially when women are so drastically underrepresented. I fully support her in calling them out publicly. Quietly informing the authorities does little.

I'm sorry, we just disagree. I'm the type of woman who will speak to people if I find their speech to be that distracting if I'm unable to move. These guys? If I was that upset? I would turned and said "eyup mates, can you keep it down? I'm having a hard time hearing the speaker"

I don't police their conversation, any more than I would like them to police mine.

I don't like passive-aggressiveness. I spent a lot of my life being passive-aggressive and always wondering why nothing ever changed.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#55

Post by ColdFingers »

colabug wrote: post #30
ianschenck wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet later she posts about playing cards against humanity. So Hitler, dead babies, and afterbirth are hilarious but a sexual innuendo is not. Got it.

The card game didn't have the same audience as the comments made. Also you are making assumptions about how she plays the game and what she would find funny.

I do believe the person intended the joke to be private. It wasn't smartest or most mature thing to do, but I don't think it's much different from a couple guys texting each other jokes and Adria just happened to caught a glance of their cellphone screen.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#56

Post by ColdFingers »

colabug wrote: post #11
thisone wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

private conversations are private. If she was feeling that they were being inappropriate, there are other ways to handle it. I'm not a fan of naming and shaming without trying to handle it privately first. Such as me saying I find the use of "chick" in that way to be unnecessarily derogative, but she really was out of line in my opinion.

"Private" conversations held with people in close quarters (e.g. conference keynote-esqe seating) is not a private conversation. Sexual jokes create an unnecessarily hostile and unwelcoming environment, especially when women are so drastically underrepresented. I fully support her in calling them out publicly. Quietly informing the authorities does little.

Don't you think the guys would have been removed from the talk, even if Adria didn't post the picture to twitter?

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#57

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

Xylakant wrote: post #44
adriarichards wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launch…

The problem I see here is that you snapped a picture and posted it in public - being prosecutor, judge, jury and executor in one person. That's not how things should work out. There's two sides of the story and I think it would have been better if a neutral party heard both sides instead of public summary execution. The guys conduct may not have been appropriate, but IMHO yours was not as well. Had you done all of th…

Sorry but the company were judge, jury and executor, not her.

If you report a crime to the police and as a result the person gets sent to prison did you send them to prison? Of course not.

She reported something that happened (which the person in question doesn't deny) - that's a reasonable thing to do.

The neutral party you ask for should then be the employer who can listen to both sides of the story and work out the appropriate way forward. If they felt there was damage to their reputation it feels a public apology from both the individual and the company, plus possibly some sort of corrective training seems more than enough.

Instead, based on what I've read the employer has over reacted and that balance didn't happen, but you can't blame that on the person reporting the event.

Yes it's utterly shitty that he lost his job over this and it really shouldn't have happened but it's not fair to lay it at her door in this way.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#58

Post by norabean »

mr-hank wrote: post #23

Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes…

I feel so sad about this. I am not liking the path of sexual harassment cases being so quick to be made in the USA. This is ridiculous that you were FIRED over this situation! As a female, I am upset at the way everyone can be such babies in this country.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#59

Post by thisone »

adriarichards wrote: post #27
mr-hank wrote: post #23

Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes…

Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launch…

Adria, what did you expect to happen?

You didn't want to argue your perspective so you went full nuclear on people. And that full nuclear got someone fired, simply because you didn't want to have to talk to them. I can understand you may be sick and tired of arguing your perspective with other people, but I hope you've learned something as well here as I doubt that this was the outcome you were looking for.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#60

Post by norabean »

zshprompt wrote: post #37
adriarichards wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launch…

Adria, its the photo that's the problem. Using to identify the people in question is OK. Posting it to the internet is wrong. Unlike your explanation states you did not let the staff resolve it. You took matters into your own hands, and served up justice vigilante style. Just as someone has to watch their mouth, you also have responsibilities. I am sure you are sorry mr-hank lost his job. But just like his dumb ass c…

Yea I am on accord with you on this. This is a case where she tried to make things better, but her slight immaturity made someone lose their job, and now kind of makes her look worse. cringe why do the people who think they are going to help us (women) the most, make us look the worst at times. I just feel both parties should have communicated to each other. She didn't need to make this about social media and a fight for women on this planet. This is nuts--- everyone thinks that they are speakers for "all of us". I just wish Americans left their high horse standings and realized this is not okay.
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