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College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

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Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand how people get sucked into these for-profit (scam) schools. Or why the federal government provides student loans for students going to such places. Presuming Ms. Parker lived in Georgia, in-state tuition at most public universities there would've cost her much less, and provided a better education. (and that's not including things like Georgia's Hope scholarship program)

In-state tuition is still rising well ahead of the means for most to pay for it out of pocket. It's not six figures by any means, but I envy the stories of generations past that managed to live at home, work part time year round or full time in the summer, and come out four years later more or less unscathed. It's frustrating to watch prices rise while state funds stay constant or decrease.

Hmn, arithmetic reality check. Georgia State, $11k per year in-state. Hmn, my alma mater is still charging about half that, for any Canadian student.

Full time minimum-wage work for the summer? $7.25/h (GA min wage) * 40h/w * 17 weeks = $5k income (basically untaxed). So you're in debt for $24k over your 4-year degree.

That's a lot more than I would have guessed. Guess the student had better figure out something valuable to do (more valuable than minimum wage).

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#52
post #5

Requiring a degree is a way to filter resumes. If you get 200 applications to a position and requiring a degree allows you to narrow that down to 30, why not?

Exactly right. We had a previous discussion of this topic which is worth reading as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3998813

Right now, it's a Bachelor's. In 10 years, perhaps less, it'll be a Masters. This has nothing to do with required skills or knowledge, and everything to do with the fact that we simply require fewer and fewer people to actually do work, and have got to get through that ever-growing pile of resumes somehow.

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something is really wrong with a regime that _lends_ an 18 year old $100,000 for an art degree. This is only possible because the lender is guaranteed paybacks no matter what (because the borrower cannot default). If we let borrowers default on loans under certain criteria (say, their annual income was below a certain threshold), then lenders would have to actually vet the students degrees --- and then we might have…

But can you imagine this world? Where you are sending your transcripts to the bank, proving to them that not only will you finish college, but be able to get a job afterwards. And every month in college having to send your grades to them so they can be sure you're still a good investment. It makes sense to me but... can you imagine the feelings that would be hurt by this?

Wouldn't the simpler system be if you fail a unit twice You've got to find the money yourself to pay for that unit.

Just hook the college results system up to the load provider and let their system keep track of it that way.

This is more or less how the government funding works in Australia, but saying that the costs of higher education are a lot lower.

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#54
UK person here. We've had this problem for a decade or so.

It started in the 90s with companies wanting graduates for roles that really doesn't require a higher education and if you didn't have a degree, your CV/Resume was promptly filed in the bin. So the government made higher education a lot more accessible and pimped it out a lot, much to the expense of both the students and the nation. More Universities, bigger classes, wider spectrum of courses, etc.

Lots of people now have degrees. I mean lots. When students are planning their education, there really isn't a "not go to University" option that doesn't carry the sweeping the streets or factory line worker stigma with it. It's also really quite rare to meet anyone younger than ~35 that hasn't been to university.

We don't quite have the Pedigree problem that, as a foreigner, it appears the US does - i.e. we don't really have a "X University is better than Y" type classification going on (e.g. in TV programme 'Suits', Pearson Hardman will only recruit Harvard educated lawyers. No other College graduates need apply. No idea how 'real' this problem is in the States.) There is some social perception of certain universities, but I'm yet to encounter any restriction being imposed based on which University someone has been to. However, we are seeing the "Must have a 1st Degree with Masters" line appearing on job adverts more and more which is simply just pushing the bar higher, as I imagine is what employers in the US asking for "College X" educated applicants are doing.

All the while we have an education system that is drilling into our young people's heads (and their parents) that University is a must. There's a lot of pressure for young people to get into University.

Degrees are not worth anything like they were before because everyone has one. Nobody "stands out" any more, is all I mean. Everyone has one because of the demand, and the government gave everyone a big boost into Uni. Recently the government had to cut back on the pseudo-subsidy they were giving to the student body, so now we also have a lot of young people who think University is make-or-break, but will also have a large amount of debt (£60,000+) before they've even started working.

Despite all this there seems to be - at least in my experience as one of the few people to have not attended university - a growing number of employers who are starting to ignore the necessity for a degree. Degrees are still regarded as a demonstration of one's character and ability to learn, but it's becoming less and less of a requirement. Perhaps it is just my experience but recruiters, employers, and certainly myself as someone who has recruited many times, are seeing past the qualifications and doing their own assessment (for lack of a better phrase) of prospective employees. I don't mean we're sitting our own exams, I mean we are doing meaningful interviews. We're inviting candidates to work with us for a few hours, and so on. Employers are realising they want to hire intelligent people, and that not everyone has access to a University education, and also that the current education system just doesn't work for everyone. This is what I hope will become of the education and employment system of the future - that a degree an option for students to pursue, but not the only option.

That should be enough rambling.

TL;DR: We've gone full circle in the UK, from requiring that candidates/applicants have degrees, back to assessing candidates for ourselves, and I expect we will again and again in the coming generations.

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious what do you consider 'stupid amount of money'?

Last year I cleared 115k. This year is shaping up to be a bit better. It's not a huge amount of money to many other people, but I consider it quite high for having no real formal education in my chosen career... plus loving what I do!

Out of interest, what is it that you do? Freelance consulting/development/design?

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#56
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The degrees are important when it's difficult to demonstrate skill. When you can't put together a portfolio of work, you need external signals, and pedigree is a commonly accepted signal (to a great extent, due to the fact that those with a strong pedigree are usually the ones hiring and they promulgate that type of thinking) Web development is one area where its possible to construct a portfolio and have others eval…

With sites like github this is true for any tech job. Think how much code you could write and put on github if you didn't go to college and worked solely on you own projects for three years. This is true for any field where you are required to create things (art, design, etc.). It's harder for subjects like history, but if you put your mind to it you could do a lot of your own research in a particular area over three…

> With sites like github this is true for any tech job.

Not any tech job. In some specialties there's still a lot to be said for formal education, and I wouldn't anticipate it being easy to land a job doing something like NLP without at least a Bachelor's degree any time soon.

For stuff like Web development where it's mostly about knowing your tools rather than understanding theory, though, yes definitely. Even if we're going to assume some formal training will be expected, I still think most folks in the tech space are poorly served by the prejudice for 4-year degrees. An associate's degree or certificate would be far less expensive and onerous. I suspect it would also be able to do a better job of preparing folks for their careers, by virtue of being freer to focus on practical skills without also having to serve the educational needs of students who are bound for postgraduate programs.

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#57

Being a web developer often times feels like I live in backwards land. I went to UTD for 1.5 semesters. I ended up with $2,000 in student loans (paid off!). I make a stupid amount of money, work from home in my pajamas, and have great benefits. I also do contract work on the side that pushes my income even higher. To top it all off, I love what I do and can't imagine myself doing anything else. Compare that with frie…

I live in Utah, and here I've noticed the same trends. A bachelors degree for Science/Math is not enough to land a "good" job. Where good is defined by me as over 50k and promotion opportunities. Employers weed out based on possession of a bachelors degree. However, the market for software engineers is much more merit based right now. Many good engineering jobs that pay 6 figures require "a bachelors degree in a tech…

According to a rigorous survey (n = 2 or 3, maybe), this cultural shift might already be underway.

Namely, I know some developers who do not hold degrees themselves that have recently started listing a Bachelor's in computer science as a requirement for consideration on new job postings. It's not, obviously, because they think people who haven't been through college can't do the job. It's because they're already seeing so many applicants that the filter's being applied anyway, and they merely decided to start being up-front about it.

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last year I cleared 115k. This year is shaping up to be a bit better. It's not a huge amount of money to many other people, but I consider it quite high for having no real formal education in my chosen career... plus loving what I do!

Out of interest, what is it that you do? Freelance consulting/development/design?

I'm a PHP developer based out of Dallas, TX.

My biggest strength that I highlight when applying to a position is testing (unit/integration/behavioral).

I work fulltime salary, plus do some small amount of contract work on the side.

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#59
post #31

Being a web developer often times feels like I live in backwards land. I went to UTD for 1.5 semesters. I ended up with $2,000 in student loans (paid off!). I make a stupid amount of money, work from home in my pajamas, and have great benefits. I also do contract work on the side that pushes my income even higher. To top it all off, I love what I do and can't imagine myself doing anything else. Compare that with frie…

The degrees are important when it's difficult to demonstrate skill. When you can't put together a portfolio of work, you need external signals, and pedigree is a commonly accepted signal (to a great extent, due to the fact that those with a strong pedigree are usually the ones hiring and they promulgate that type of thinking) Web development is one area where its possible to construct a portfolio and have others eval…

A good Portfolio is really key. I've pivoted from being a web developer to a mobile developer (iOS & Droid).

I only got hired for this job because I had 3 apps in the app-store. I was passed over for many jobs that I was qualified for, but being a programmer most businesses want a cog that already knows everything (which is definitely a misnomer). I have a university degree in 'Music Theory & Composition', not CS, which I think has hurt me when HR people looked at my resume. Also I was passed over for a job because I didn't list HTML as a language I know. Sometimes you're limited just by the ignorant people looking at your resume.

Also the best jobs come from personal referrals.

Re: College Degree Required by Increasing Number of Companies

#60
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The degrees are important when it's difficult to demonstrate skill. When you can't put together a portfolio of work, you need external signals, and pedigree is a commonly accepted signal (to a great extent, due to the fact that those with a strong pedigree are usually the ones hiring and they promulgate that type of thinking) Web development is one area where its possible to construct a portfolio and have others eval…

A good Portfolio is really key. I've pivoted from being a web developer to a mobile developer (iOS & Droid). I only got hired for this job because I had 3 apps in the app-store. I was passed over for many jobs that I was qualified for, but being a programmer most businesses want a cog that already knows everything (which is definitely a misnomer). I have a university degree in 'Music Theory & Composition', not CS, wh…

> I was passed over for a job because I didn't list HTML as a language I know.

to be fair, if that was the reason they passed over you, it might've been a blessing in disguise because i suspect that place wouldn't have been a very pleasant place to work!

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