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This is how you healthcare: American Death in London

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Re: This is how you healthcare: American Death in London

#51

Post by abstractbill »

marknutter wrote: post #32
abstractbill wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having lived in the uk for the first 27 years of my life, and then in California for the past 10, I have only one word to describe the way American healthcare feels to me: barbaric. Long live the NHS, and yay for Obamacare - it seems like a step in the right direction at least.

Why does it seem like a step in the right direction, specifically?

For me there's a very specific, personal, reason. At the end of 2011 I got randomly unlucky and suffered from pneumonia, a stomach ulcer, and a norovirus all in the space of three months. I was hospitalized for the norovirus. After that I was told by more than one insurance agent that I wouldn't be able to purchase insurance at any price, for about 18 months. Obamacare does at least stop that from happening to people. I'd prefer single-payer, but like I said, it's a step.

Re: This is how you healthcare: American Death in London

#52

Post by btilly »

ahi wrote: post #35
danso wrote: post #8

Some excerpts: He was a charming, damaged, charismatic, fiercely intelligent, dissolute individual, who lived entirely on his own terms. As a professional gambler, it is unlikely he paid much if any tax in 37 years. He had no will, no funeral plan. He never did fill out the forms necessary to vote in the last election, or the one before that, as I discovered. He just hated forms. I could sympathise. Had he stayed in…

The problem with the TANSTAAFL argument in this case is that the NHS is far cheaper than the American alternative. It is also far superior at providing preventative care than the American alternative.

Indeed. The US private sector and the US federal government EACH spend more per capita on health care than the UK does. And yet we rank behind the UK on virtually every health statistic that they bother to track.

In 1993 Republicans did an interesting analysis. They found that Clinton's health care plan would work, and would be popular. If it passed, they believed that Republicans would be losing national elections for a generation. But they also figured out that if they derailed it, then they could turn fears about it into a potent election issue. They did, and it was. They tried the same thing with Obama's plan. Whether the other half of their prediction comes true is yet to be decided.

For the actual Republican analysis from 1993, see http://delong.typepad.com/egregious_moderation/2009/03/willi....

Re: This is how you healthcare: American Death in London

#53

Post by bunderbunder »

rdouble wrote: post #33
bunderbunder wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's illegal to turn someone away from the emergency department . For the other 90% of the hospital it's a different story entirely.

Right, but there's no other front line of entry to anywhere else in the hospital. If a person walked to a hospital and demanded to see a brain surgeon they would be turned away even if they had health insurance. A major issue with the american health care system is there is a severe shortage of front line care outside of the ER. This is a side effect of the way doctors are compensated. There is no financial incentive…

> Right, but there's no other front line of entry to anywhere else in the hospital.

Yes there is. It's called a "primary care provider", and many of them have their offices right there in the hospital. Though the ones who operate out of separate clinics can often be less expensive, if not more conveniently located.

If you don't already have one, you really should. The emergency department really hates it when people clog up their waiting rooms by going there with non-emergency issues instead of seeing a PCP. And your health insurance (assuming you have it) really hates it when you drive up their costs by going to the ED instead of seeing a PCP. And, if there were any price transparency in the American system, then your fellow citizens would also really hate it when you force the health insurance company to drive up their costs by going to the ED instead of seeing a PCP.

Re: This is how you healthcare: American Death in London

#54

Post by daleharvey »

mikekij wrote: post #41

- I'm really sorry to hear about the author's father's passing. - While it's heart-warming, it is unrealistic to think that a public program can spend infinite amounts of money on citizens who a) have paid "little or no" taxes and b) "throat cancer suffers who quit smoking four years afterwards". The math just doesn't add up. - The fact that the US has a pseudo market-based healthcare system is what allows drug / dev…

They dont spend a literal infinite amount, but to provide a basic healthcare to every person in the country the math(s) obviously does add up, because the NHS does it.

Re: This is how you healthcare: American Death in London

#56

Post by cpleppert »

droithomme wrote: post #25
oneandoneis2 wrote: post #6

I was in America, in LA, a few years back (I'm British), when the whole Obamacare thing was being debated everywhere. The one thing I noticed, and it was a rule that didn't have a single exception, was that everyone I talked to could give at least one example of a time when either they or somebody they personally knew had been faced with a ruinous bill for healthcare. People who'd been bankrupted, people who'd fled t…

I'm one of those people. Allow me to respond. I have seen people ruined with medical bills. There are many reasons why the system is dysfunctional, and I'm aware of nearly all of them. Did you know that a round of cancer treatment in the US can cost over $500,000, and even if you are fully insured with a good policy you can have a 20% copay required, meaning that with insurance you still personally have to pay $100,0…

You do realize that Obamacare makes it a lot more likely any single payer plan will be accepted in the future, right? If people are already forced to buy a private plan and medicaid has been expanded then it isn't a leap to just cover everyone and move to a single payer system. This is more true if the exchanges start covering lots of people, in this case, the government has a direct interest that private care is being provided efficiently.

I would briefly point out that the $20,000 a year plans you refer to was an example number that the IRS used to illustrate how the law works and not a projection of the cost of healthcare plans in the exchange.

Re: This is how you healthcare: American Death in London

#57

Post by bengillies »

Aaronontheweb wrote: post #45
abstractbill wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having lived in the uk for the first 27 years of my life, and then in California for the past 10, I have only one word to describe the way American healthcare feels to me: barbaric. Long live the NHS, and yay for Obamacare - it seems like a step in the right direction at least.

Speaking as someone who's had multiple relatives die at the hands of NHS rationing, I completely disagree. In a system where you can't sue your healthcare provider for egregious malpractice because they're a governmental body and are thus subject to the same citizen-sues-state rules as law enforcement or any other public service, I fear for the quality of our healthcare.

Can you explain this please, as I'm pretty sure you can totally sue the NHS if you want to.

Re: This is how you healthcare: American Death in London

#58

Post by lifeisstillgood »

VLM wrote: post #49
danso wrote: post #8

Some excerpts: He was a charming, damaged, charismatic, fiercely intelligent, dissolute individual, who lived entirely on his own terms. As a professional gambler, it is unlikely he paid much if any tax in 37 years. He had no will, no funeral plan. He never did fill out the forms necessary to vote in the last election, or the one before that, as I discovered. He just hated forms. I could sympathise. Had he stayed in…

"But the reason why it doesn't happen is because of cost" The most peculiar part of the whole situation is service cost and individual personal wealth is never an issue WRT national military "defense" or police coverage or fire department coverage or admission into a church or the (admittedly failed) K12 education system or EPA enforcement or OSHA enforcement or ... thus the real question is why cost should be a conc…

Thank you for that :-)

I think we have happily gotten over the idea of needing insurance company plaques on your building in case of fire, and soldiers rarely defend only the rich parts of cities.

Thank you, very well put.

Re: This is how you healthcare: American Death in London

#59

Post by rdouble »

bunderbunder wrote: post #53
rdouble wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but there's no other front line of entry to anywhere else in the hospital. If a person walked to a hospital and demanded to see a brain surgeon they would be turned away even if they had health insurance. A major issue with the american health care system is there is a severe shortage of front line care outside of the ER. This is a side effect of the way doctors are compensated. There is no financial incentive…

> Right, but there's no other front line of entry to anywhere else in the hospital. Yes there is. It's called a "primary care provider", and many of them have their offices right there in the hospital. Though the ones who operate out of separate clinics can often be less expensive, if not more conveniently located. If you don't already have one, you really should. The emergency department really hates it when people…

Both of my parents are primary care providers. The offices of GPs usually are not located in a hospital, unless the hospital is part of a large integrated HMO like Kaiser Permanente. There is a trend in the USA of building large medical "campuses" where primary care has their offices in a separate wing somewhere.

Re: This is how you healthcare: American Death in London

#60

Post by chrisdevereux »

droithomme wrote: post #25
oneandoneis2 wrote: post #6

I was in America, in LA, a few years back (I'm British), when the whole Obamacare thing was being debated everywhere. The one thing I noticed, and it was a rule that didn't have a single exception, was that everyone I talked to could give at least one example of a time when either they or somebody they personally knew had been faced with a ruinous bill for healthcare. People who'd been bankrupted, people who'd fled t…

I'm one of those people. Allow me to respond. I have seen people ruined with medical bills. There are many reasons why the system is dysfunctional, and I'm aware of nearly all of them. Did you know that a round of cancer treatment in the US can cost over $500,000, and even if you are fully insured with a good policy you can have a 20% copay required, meaning that with insurance you still personally have to pay $100,0…

You may be right about this specific solution, but parent was talking about people opposed to any healthcare reform. Especially a single-payer system, I'd imagine.
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