Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Meritocracy and Discrimination in Tech

bjk5.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 72 posts

Re: Meritocracy and Discrimination in Tech

#51

Post by Tichy »

cantastoria wrote: post #32
kamens wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An increase in women in tech majors and a company mission that strongly appeals to both women and men.

I'm pretty sure most universities have a company mission that appeals to both men and women and they haven't suddenly seen a 2:1 f/m ratio in CS majors. What makes Khan so different?

He might have a point in that a lot of women seem to aspire to be teachers. For example when I got my maths degree, 99% (estimated) of the women sitting in the lectures with me were studying to become teachers. Perhaps working for Khan Academy somehow seems close enough to teaching.

Re: Meritocracy and Discrimination in Tech

#52

Post by mjmahone17 »

LockeWatts wrote: post #40
mjmahone17 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LockeWatts: What does the SAT have to do with writing software? I'd say being able to overcome adversity, i.e. being able to do more with what you've been dealt than others believe you can, is usually going to be a stronger indicator of future performance than is a test score. Furthermore, I'd argue in software development especially, you need to be able to overcome people's initial compunctions, and you need to be r…

"I'd say being able to overcome adversity, i.e. being able to do more with what you've been dealt than others believe you can, is usually going to be a stronger indicator of future performance than is a test score." Well you can say that, but I haven't seen any studies that would indicate as such. However, multiple studies have shown that logical reasoning, critical thinking, and mathematical aptitude all lead to bet…

Adversity: a state, condition, or instance of serious or continued difficulty or adverse fortune (see adverse)[1]

One of the biggest problems with relying purely on quantitative data is that you bias the results to those who are better at achieving quantitative goals. EDIT: and your results are inevitably skewed by the test. Are you saying communication and writing capability are unimportant, simply because they're difficult to quantify?

What you're arguing for is, given a choice of bad quantitative tools and OK to mediocre qualitative ones, using the quantitative tools as they're the only way you can measure things. This is a similar argument as to why grades are more important than actual teacher feedback, despite some teachers giving 95% of the class an A, and others giving 20%.

The SAT has a history of discrimination, and, in addition, there are proven stereotyping effects: give self-identifying Asian women a math test, and they'll perform better when you make them identify with being Asian then when you make them identify with being a women[2].

Given how much energy has been spent recruiting me (having me fly out to interviews, organizing tech talks at my school, having employees at the company take me to lunch, etc.), and given that every company I interviewed with asked something along the lines of "tell me about a project you've done recently," which also is a subjective, non-quantifiable question, it hardly seems like an unreasonable burden to ask, as part of the regular interview questions, how a candidate has overcome adversity.

And admissions officers don't give weight to the SAT essay because they have their own essays with which to judge a candidate with. And the SAT just provides a quantitative essay score, whereas colleges can see and evaluate multiple written pieces. And they do often ask questions like how you've overcome adversity. Which makes sense, as they want students who won't give up when facing difficulties.

[1] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/adversity

[2] http://icos.groups.si.umich.edu/shihpaper.html

Re: Meritocracy and Discrimination in Tech

#53

Post by Tichy »

kamens wrote: post #12
cantastoria wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fogcreek and Google's interview process both seem to yield a far larger number of male employees than females yes? David, Dylan and Jamie are all men yes? If any piece of evidence from the above points to an organization that values quotas over excellence in interns and the work expected of them, well please raise the alarm. No one is accusing you of using quotas and no is saying you do not value excellence in intern…

And what I'm asking you is: can you come up with any possible explanations for an increase in women devs over time that should be celebrated, especially at an organization that values equal education for everyone, without first wondering if our interview questions have changed ?

I don't think you have to feel attacked, isn't it natural to ask what is going on if you produce an outlier? It could be genuine curiosity.

In the same vein it is interesting to ask why most companies receive more male applications. Without asking these questions, how can there ever be an improvement (except for random luck)?

Re: Meritocracy and Discrimination in Tech

#54

Post by Tichy »

mjmahone17 wrote: post #33
mjmahone17 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about proven ability to overcome adversity?

LockeWatts: What does the SAT have to do with writing software? I'd say being able to overcome adversity, i.e. being able to do more with what you've been dealt than others believe you can, is usually going to be a stronger indicator of future performance than is a test score. Furthermore, I'd argue in software development especially, you need to be able to overcome people's initial compunctions, and you need to be r…

"Why not ask candidates to write an essay, or tell you in person, about how they've overcome adversity?"

Wouldn't such a system be very easy to attack, how would you avoid the judges being biased, or the claim that they could be biased? Since judging an essay would probably not be an automated thing at this stage of AI development?

Re: Meritocracy and Discrimination in Tech

#55

Post by harryh »

Tichy wrote: post #46
rjknight wrote: post #18

One of the commonly-stated reasons for why discrimination persists in a field is that people making hiring decisions are biased. They might not know that they're biased, but they have some notions about the kind of people they want to see working for their company, and they disproportionately hire those people. This is quite an insidious form of discrimination because it's hard to prove, but it is possible to catch p…

Breaking my planned HN abstinence, but this is exactly the one thing I worry about: "for instance if they display a preference for talking to or dealing with male colleagues over female ones" Why is this discrimination? I think people should still be allowed to be individuals. So maybe I am more interested in Star Wars and some female developer is more interested in Sex And The City (sorry for the stereotypes, but ac…

> Why is this discrimination? I think people should still be allowed to be individuals.

As soon as you become a manager you are no longer allowed to just be an individual. Your actions (both overt and subtle) have power over others so you no longer just get to do whatever you want.

Re: Meritocracy and Discrimination in Tech

#56

Post by harryh »

LockeWatts wrote: post #30
rjknight wrote: post #18

One of the commonly-stated reasons for why discrimination persists in a field is that people making hiring decisions are biased. They might not know that they're biased, but they have some notions about the kind of people they want to see working for their company, and they disproportionately hire those people. This is quite an insidious form of discrimination because it's hard to prove, but it is possible to catch p…

"how there are exclusive events for female staff where female leadership is advocated." Can someone on HN give me a level headed explanation, for why this is more appropriate than the opposite (An event exclusive to men)? It's never made sense to me why one is accepted and the other isn't.

Because events for male staff where male leadership is advocated HAPPEN ALL THE FUCKING TIME. LOOK AROUND! The events that the OP discusses for women are a great way to even things out just a little bit.

Re: Meritocracy and Discrimination in Tech

#57

Post by mjmahone17 »

Tichy wrote: post #54
mjmahone17 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LockeWatts: What does the SAT have to do with writing software? I'd say being able to overcome adversity, i.e. being able to do more with what you've been dealt than others believe you can, is usually going to be a stronger indicator of future performance than is a test score. Furthermore, I'd argue in software development especially, you need to be able to overcome people's initial compunctions, and you need to be r…

"Why not ask candidates to write an essay, or tell you in person, about how they've overcome adversity?" Wouldn't such a system be very easy to attack, how would you avoid the judges being biased, or the claim that they could be biased? Since judging an essay would probably not be an automated thing at this stage of AI development?

Most colleges (especially private colleges) already require you to write essays. Having one on adversity is also, for certain colleges, already in place. I'm not talking about automated judging, or even explicit scoring (besides figuring out hire/not hire, or next round or not), i.e. no, this can't really be used to exactly replace the SAT, but it could be used as an evaluative supplement.

Re: Meritocracy and Discrimination in Tech

#58

Post by revelation »

milfot wrote: post #43
rjknight wrote: post #18

One of the commonly-stated reasons for why discrimination persists in a field is that people making hiring decisions are biased. They might not know that they're biased, but they have some notions about the kind of people they want to see working for their company, and they disproportionately hire those people. This is quite an insidious form of discrimination because it's hard to prove, but it is possible to catch p…

"If bias is wrong, being biased in favour of a minority group is still wrong, in this view." Another way to look at this is that the exception proves the rule. These sorts of deliberately perverse inversions of discrimination really offend. Perhaps they may also serve spur the male colleagues to clean their own house. Sometimes people can become aware of their own biases when they see their actions mirrored in front…

Privilege seems to be a common theme today, based on the very worrisome line of thinking that averaging over 150 million people spanning 100+ years tells you anything meaningful.

Re: Meritocracy and Discrimination in Tech

#59

Post by Tichy »

mjmahone17 wrote: post #57
Tichy wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why not ask candidates to write an essay, or tell you in person, about how they've overcome adversity?" Wouldn't such a system be very easy to attack, how would you avoid the judges being biased, or the claim that they could be biased? Since judging an essay would probably not be an automated thing at this stage of AI development?

Most colleges (especially private colleges) already require you to write essays. Having one on adversity is also, for certain colleges, already in place. I'm not talking about automated judging, or even explicit scoring (besides figuring out hire/not hire, or next round or not), i.e. no, this can't really be used to exactly replace the SAT, but it could be used as an evaluative supplement.

Didn't know that, I never actually had to deal with the US admissions system.

Re: Meritocracy and Discrimination in Tech

#60

Post by spicyj »

spamizbad wrote: post #50
LockeWatts wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in college presently, and to get into the tech world, it's a requirement from where I'm sitting. Good candidates have multiple ones with big name companies\hot start ups.

Boo, that stinks. Personally, I think internships are bullshit unless they're having you work on genuinely interesting stuff like Google's Summer of Code. I must have been pretty lucky as I never had to jump through any credentialing hoops to break into the industry (That was in '05, pre-bubble no less. Didn't even finish college). If I were you, I'd pair up with a co-founder, come up with an idea, and apply to one o…

At Khan Academy, we certainly do our best to have interns work on "genuinely interesting stuff", and we put huge emphasis on good mentorship, more so than is probably possible with a remote program like GSoC. Here's a bit more info about our internship program:

https://www.khanacademy.org/careers/interns

Don't miss the stories from past interns linked on the left.

Post reply on HN