Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Obama endorses required high school coding classes

news.cnet.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 105 posts

Re: Obama endorses required high school coding classes

#51

Post by dizzystar »

danilocampos wrote: post #28
dizzystar wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Speaking as someone who has been on both sides, you do not fully understand how a computer works until you understand how to write code for it in some form. Do they need to know how to write a compiler? Absolutely not. But knowing how to write a script with conditional outcomes is probably a worthwhile exercise. Oh, good, now people think I came out of the womb with a computer in my hands. You're barking up the wr…

I ask again: What about computer literacy, at the level of understanding the software that makes such devices work, makes it less valid than history, science or mathematics as a required field of study? Put your fingers in your ears if you'd like, the crucial point is that we've already got a system where you have to learn things you don't necessarily want to learn. What is it about the most important growth subject…

I'm not arguing against teaching students to use their computer as a tool. I'm arguing against programming specifically...

When people that spend thousands of dollars to learn programming can't even do simple coding exercises, what makes you think a high school student struggling under the current workload will do?

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/02/why-cant-programmer...

Re: Obama endorses required high school coding classes

#52

Post by lutusp »

johnpowell wrote: post #49

No problem with it. Consider it a class in logic. Math is mandatory and people still can't figure a tip in their head.

> Math is mandatory and people still can't figure a tip in their head.

Yes -- be that as it may, let's remember that mathematics and arithmetic are two different things. Arithmetic is useful even though we now have calculators everywhere, but understanding math is much more important -- and it isn't about adding columns of figures or figuring a tip in one's head.

Re: Obama endorses required high school coding classes

#53

Post by joelmaat »

This needs to be introduced (in a much more basic form) well before high school. You have to get it into the average child's head before the age of 5, or it will never stick or be easy to understand, just like learning a new foreign language. And it should be taught in the same way (just not like they do in public education, but in a more modern way that is proving to be more effective).

Re: Obama endorses required high school coding classes

#54

Post by EnderMB »

danilocampos wrote: post #16

Every time this is brought up, there's pearl clutching and handwringing from technical and non-technical folks alike. The fretting goes, "What about the people who don't like it? What about the people who have no aptitude for it?" And to this I ask: What makes programming so special that we should shield people without aptitude from learning it? Many have no aptitude for language – we still require english classes. M…

I believe the whole "all kids should code" bandwagon is over the top, mainly because to me coding at its most basic form is a skill that is acquired through equal parts of learning and experience, very similar to the likes of plumbing or car maintenance.

My biggest issue is that most people for mandatory programming often believe that it will make kids "programmers" and will make them understand computers. For starters, I know a load of working programmers that don't really understand computers that well, and programming for an hour or two a week for a few months isn't going to make you a programmer, no more than me cooking dinner every night makes me a chef, or fixing a leaky pipe makes me a plumber.

I do think that programming should be taught in schools, as people need to learn the production side of the tools that society relies on so much. I also think that schools could go much further in teaching kids rudimentary skills for life as well, like fixing things around the house, basic car maintenance and basic money skills. In my mind programming is no more important than any of these skills, and if programming is to be taught in schools then so should these skills.

Re: Obama endorses required high school coding classes

#55

Post by spc476 »

danilocampos wrote: post #25
dizzystar wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this sentiment. Lots of people get through life just fine, and in fact are immensely successful in life, without knowing how to program. The fact is that the HS flavor of all of those classes are basically recite and regurgitate with a different name attached to it. The other difference is that there are different levels of classes for different levels of students, unless things have changed drasti…

> I really don't get why "computer skills" should be conflated with learning how to program completely. Speaking as someone who has been on both sides, you do not fully understand how a computer works until you understand how to write code for it in some form. Do they need to know how to write a compiler? Absolutely not. But knowing how to write a script with conditional outcomes is probably a worthwhile exercise. >…

So, one must know how a car works in order to drive?

I'm really torn on this topic. I'm a programmer, and I can understand how understanding how a computer works can be useful. And if I were to be extreme, I would demand that every programmer should not only learn assembly, but write one non-trival program in it. I mean, it's not hard. Tedious, yes, but not hard. But I'm realistic enough to know that not everyone will agree with that sentiment. What worked for me won't work for everyone.

Back in high school (August 1983 to May 1987) I took two classes that taught programming---Advanced Computers (Pascal on Apple ][ computers, each with a single floppy drive, during the 85-86 school year) and Drama (84 through 87). The Advanced Computers is obvious, but Drama?

Yes. Drama.

I preferred working backstage, with a specialization in lights. And at my high school we had a programmable light control board. So, working with a numeric keypad, you would type in a typical "program:"

    1@1
    2@1
    3@1
    4@1
    5@2
    6@3
    7@3
(and so on) The first number is the light number (technically, the outlet the light was plugged into) with the second being a dimmer switch (dimmer slide? I'm not sure what to call it). You slide dimmer number 1 up, and lights 1 through 4 would light up. That was the program (I think there were up to 50 or 60 outlets, and 32 dimmers---it's been quite a few years). And I wasn't the only one who knew how to program this (some might argue that this isn't "programming." I would counter---I am instructing the computer on what to do (you could also program a timed transition between multiple settings). Yes, it is not Turing complete, but than again, pure regular expressions aren't either).

And let me say, that computer was more relevant to the students using it, than the Apple ][s. Let's see ... 1985---the computer that year was the Amiga, a 32 bit multitasking computer, followed by the Atari 1040 (also a 32 bit computer, although I'm not sure if it had a multitasking operating system or not); The first 386s had just come out so most PCs where either 286s (mid range) or 8088 (mid to low range) and all 8-bit computers were fading by then. Technology was highly volatile then.

I don't know. The technology has changed too much to really settle one what needs to be taught. Heck, even the concept of a "file" is going away these days.

Re: Obama endorses required high school coding classes

#57

Post by DeepDuh »

spc476 wrote: post #55
danilocampos wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really don't get why "computer skills" should be conflated with learning how to program completely. Speaking as someone who has been on both sides, you do not fully understand how a computer works until you understand how to write code for it in some form. Do they need to know how to write a compiler? Absolutely not. But knowing how to write a script with conditional outcomes is probably a worthwhile exercise. >…

So, one must know how a car works in order to drive? I'm really torn on this topic. I'm a programmer, and I can understand how understanding how a computer works can be useful. And if I were to be extreme, I would demand that every programmer should not only learn assembly, but write one non-trival program in it. I mean, it's not hard. Tedious, yes, but not hard. But I'm realistic enough to know that not everyone wil…

Would we require people to know the basics about car mechanics if 90% if out jobs were depending on driving a car and if people had about 50 of them on average? I think yes, Sir.

Re: Obama endorses required high school coding classes

#58

Post by rcat »

Where I come from, students choose subjects they wish to specialise at the age of 12. One of these specialisations was computer studies, which gives basic knowledge of various topics someone working in IT might need. One of these was programming.

It was poorly taught. Half of the class couldn't even figure out loops, they were literally scared of them coming out. They absolutely hated it.

I chose to continue studying this subject at sixth form (basically the local equivalent of high school) and even though we were now taught by engineers and people with doctorates, they were horrible. They just spoon fed us, giving us programs to study by heart. They had no idea of code redundancy, modularity or readability.

These were for students who chose to study the subjects. What the situation would be like if these courses were compulsory.

Re: Obama endorses required high school coding classes

#59

Post by DeepDuh »

jlgreco wrote: post #42
argonaut wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The skill of writing is already covered by English classes. Whether or not those English classes do a good job is a different discussion. You also seem to be making the mistake of thinking that writing and coding are mutually exclusive.

You seem to have missed my broader point. Regardless, school resources are certainly finite and it only makes sense to prioritize efforts based on need. Youths in today's world only need to "understand how computers work" in order to use them in an academic sense not unlike we need to "understand how the human body works" in order to maintain one. Get the basic mechanics of use down and you're good to go. In the case…

Wait, so it isn't even worth prioritizing a field which heavily influences pretty much all of today's economy and the influence will only grow in the future. Your input about business proposals is certainly valid, but it dodges the issue at hand.

Re: Obama endorses required high school coding classes

#60

Post by DeepDuh »

rcat wrote: post #58

Where I come from, students choose subjects they wish to specialise at the age of 12. One of these specialisations was computer studies, which gives basic knowledge of various topics someone working in IT might need. One of these was programming. It was poorly taught. Half of the class couldn't even figure out loops, they were literally scared of them coming out. They absolutely hated it. I chose to continue studying…

You raise a very good point here. IMO there should be a big push in the pedagogic branch of CS. It should be a requirement for math teachers to study, just like manual division algorithms. I was lucky to have a math teacher in high school who pushed this subject out of her own will. However in my home country (Switzerland), what we call high school is only visited by about the top 20% of pupils, the others go non academic routes.
Post reply on HN