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Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

nytimes.com

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Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#51

Post by rdouble »

labcomputer wrote: post #44
malloreon wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace him with "an experienced early adopter." How would the article be different? Would he have been able to get where he wanted to go, or would he have not tried to go as far as the car said he could go?

>Replace him with "an experienced early adopter." How would the article be different? So, I've been reading the forums at teslamotorsclub.com recently, and there are a lot of questions (and answers) about the Model S's range. From what has been written over there, it sounds like the car's speed has the biggest impact on range. In the NYT piece, I notice that the only time he mentions his speed is after it started to…

If he stayed at a hotel there would be nothing to plug into.

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#52

Post by CamperBob2 »

bwhite wrote: post #36
CamperBob2 wrote: post #21

In a rational world, every one of the gas stations he passed would have had a rack of fully charged swappable batteries, ready for installation in less time than it would have taken to fill a conventional gas tank. Why nobody seems to understand how stupid charging an EV in real time is, is something that I find astonishing. (To clarify: I can understand why most people don't understand why non-swappable batteries ar…

You're not the first person with this idea: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/better-place/ To some extent there is a standards problem: there is not a common battery pack (like there is a gas tank fill point). But even if there were, the batteries would continue to run down after delivery (unless supplied with a non-trivial amount of power). And the space required to physically store these batteries would occupy…

But even if there were, the batteries would continue to run down after delivery (unless supplied with a non-trivial amount of power).

My thinking is that they would be kept on trickle charge at the gas station after delivery. That wouldn't take a huge amount of power. The actual recharging process would happen at a depot that has high power connectivity to the grid with low distribution losses.

I suspect it would be more efficient to do that and have the charged batteries trucked to the service stations, than it would be to have each service station do their own primary recharging. Especially since, as you say, the service station owners aren't going to want to devote a huge amount of space to battery inventory.

I'm vaguely aware of Better Place but they certainly don't get Tesla's mindshare (good, bad, or otherwise.)

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#53

Post by revelation »

labcomputer wrote: post #44
malloreon wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace him with "an experienced early adopter." How would the article be different? Would he have been able to get where he wanted to go, or would he have not tried to go as far as the car said he could go?

>Replace him with "an experienced early adopter." How would the article be different? So, I've been reading the forums at teslamotorsclub.com recently, and there are a lot of questions (and answers) about the Model S's range. From what has been written over there, it sounds like the car's speed has the biggest impact on range. In the NYT piece, I notice that the only time he mentions his speed is after it started to…

The problem really is the mindset (and infrastructure). People in gasoline cars regularly drive their cars to the point where they have 1/6th of fuel left and then refuel.

That is just not the modus operandi with an electric vehicle. You plug it in everywhere you can, and frankly thats almost everywhere theres main power.

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#54

Post by [deleted] »

notdrunkatall wrote: post #48

As a TSLA shareholder and as a general fan of the company, this is disappointing. TSLA's been doing everything right, which is what has given them so much momentum so early in the game, and if they are going to be the big disruptor that I'm betting on, they cannot afford to lose that momentum. If they start mis-stepping, they won't last long, and this is a misstep that many, many people at TSLA should have seen comin…

[deleted]

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#55

Post by CamperBob2 »

andyl wrote: post #45

I just drove by some dude who was running down a pitch-dark freeway with a small child at his side. They were carrying a can of gas to refill at the station a couple miles ahead. Damn gasoline engines - so unreliable! You'd think after 100+ years of development they'd have sorted this stuff out.

Hardly the same thing, unless the guy's gas gauge lied to him.

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#56

Post by nickv »

revelation wrote: post #33
eropple wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are missing something: where do you put the replaceable batteries? Tesla's battery packs are distributed throughout the car, both to allow for cargo space (not having a trunk would be something of a minus) and to distribute the weight of all those batteries. I am having a very hard time envisioning a way to achieve both of those goals while making the batteries replaceable.

The battery pack is not distributed throughout the car, and it is actually designed to be somewhat hot-swap capable in the Model S. It's just that for the majority of people, battery swapping makes no sense. They can charge their vehicle over night at very very cheap prices and have enough range to serve them all day. If you insist on taking a cross-country roadtrip, rent an ICE - the infrastructure is just not there…

I've heard that awhile back, but based on the new designs I've seen for the "battery base" I don't see how that's possible?

Pic of the battery: (which is really the base of the whole car) http://www.cartype.com/pics/10143/full/tesla_model_s_battery...

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#57

Post by bpc9 »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #28
bpc9 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article mentioned that the top-end battery weighs in at half a ton --- not exactly hot-swapping material. Also, when it comes to safety, center of gravity, chassis rigidity, etc --- I'm sure there were a myriad of engineering decisions beyond weight that go against hot swapping. And that's not even getting to added cost and logistics of maintaining a network of skilled battery swap experts, "ownership" over the b…

You're right, those are all drawbacks. They all pale in comparison to the advantages, though. Swapping my car's battery should be as big a deal as swapping the propane cylinder on my gas grill. And yes, batteries these days are perfectly capable of monitoring themselves in a leased-usage scenario. Your laptop battery has its own CPU and EEPROM, for instance. To understand why, see any recent news story on the Dreamli…

"Should" is always a tough one -- from a product design standpoint.

The tradeoffs due to price point, available technologies, time to market, etc leave a lot of "should" on the cutting floor due to compromise. I don't think we're particularly close on hot swap batteries as a stand in for real time charging while they still weigh 1000lbs.

I'm betting that folks like Telsa will drive hard on the necessary advances in battery technology over time, or energy storage technique more broadly.

Personally, I think having to swap the battery is just as stone age inefficient. I want some sort of super-capacitor with instant charge capability and fine-grained control over the energy release --- not to mention avoiding the nasty chemical mix in traditional battery tech, waste energy in the form of heat, etc.

Maybe some amalgamation of materials science, nano-tech, etc will get us there.

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#58

Post by revelation »

notdrunkatall wrote: post #48

As a TSLA shareholder and as a general fan of the company, this is disappointing. TSLA's been doing everything right, which is what has given them so much momentum so early in the game, and if they are going to be the big disruptor that I'm betting on, they cannot afford to lose that momentum. If they start mis-stepping, they won't last long, and this is a misstep that many, many people at TSLA should have seen comin…

There is no magic fix for this. It's like asking to turn off gravity and friction so you can have a more comfortable trip.

The reason for the big losses in the cold is the battery management system that is trying to keep the pack warm and has to expend energy to do so. You can opt not to do any battery management, but then you get thermal runaway and a life-threatening Boeing situation, or (in the cold) your battery pack is damaged.

They picked the best option there is under the circumstances.

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#59

Post by thrownaway2424 »

This is why electric cars are not magical fairies and can't solve the structural problems around transportation in the USA. They suck for long-haul travel, but nobody should have to have their own car for long-haul travel. It should be possible to travel around by train, using a rented car for only the last short leg of the trip, if it happens to be rural, or local public transport otherwise. Electrics would be just perfect hired cars if you only needed to go ten miles and back or something like that.

Re: Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway

#60

Post by nickv »

revelation wrote: post #58
notdrunkatall wrote: post #48

As a TSLA shareholder and as a general fan of the company, this is disappointing. TSLA's been doing everything right, which is what has given them so much momentum so early in the game, and if they are going to be the big disruptor that I'm betting on, they cannot afford to lose that momentum. If they start mis-stepping, they won't last long, and this is a misstep that many, many people at TSLA should have seen comin…

There is no magic fix for this. It's like asking to turn off gravity and friction so you can have a more comfortable trip. The reason for the big losses in the cold is the battery management system that is trying to keep the pack warm and has to expend energy to do so. You can opt not to do any battery management, but then you get thermal runaway and a life-threatening Boeing situation, or (in the cold) your battery…

Possible valid fixes:

- Have the reporting system look at current temperature and change the reported range.

- More supercharger stations closer together. (200 miles apart for a reported range of 268?! Ballsy. Especially in the extreme cold of the northeast. Reckless when you are giving a car to a NYTimes reviewer.)

- Don't have the parking brake LOCK so you can't even move the car without a flatbed truck.

- Have the car warn/inform the driver when they park somewhere cold to keep it plugged in to warm the battery up

and that's off the top of my head.

Many things can be done. This isn't necessarily a 'physics problem.' It's communicating and setting expectations. When the car says "100 miles" and you are stuck at the side of the road after 50 miles, it doesn't matter that "the physics make sense". What matters is you were screwed by completely false information.

The fix is simple. In fact, it's so simple, I would be SHOCKED if the TSLA guys aren't already including it in a future firmware update.

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