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A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

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51–60 of 108 posts

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#51

I'm no expert, but this hasn't convinced me yet: 1. The author shows one anecdotal example of the effect being claimed, and then claims that it's a large factor based again, on wholly anecdotal factors. 2. The author uses as evidence that two CEOs that they can think of are attractive. I don't need to go into the statistics to point out how ridiculous this is. 3. Of CEOs who are women, there aren't any exceptional le…

"While claiming not to, this article feeds into the narrative of 'attractive women must be stupid,' by implying that attractive women, having clearly been selected for their attractiveness, will tend to be less intelligent."

This is not the right way to read it. The article is saying that if your promotion process selects the men with the most merit, but where the appearance of women takes precedence over their merits, the women who make it to higher levels will be less likely to have strong merits than the men (due to different selection criteria). It is not saying that attractive women are less likely to be intelligent, it is saying that they will be competing against men who were selected for their talents (including intelligence).

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#52
I think change will be exponential. For example, look at the change in the makeup of Canadian provincial premiers. All 10 premiers were men 20 years ago, but now: Ontario: Kathleen Wynn (Last weekend) Quebec: Pauline Marois (September 2012) Alberta: Alison Redford (October 2011) British Columbia: Rita Johnston (1991), Christy Clark (March 2011)

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#53

Another funny fact about the 'halo effect' discussed here: when rating individuals for aptitude on a variety of tasks, straight men have a positive bias towards attractive women, whereas straight women have a negative bias towards attractive women (a kind of 'jealousy' phenomenon). This jealousy phenomenon seems less apparent when it's straight men rating men.

These kinds of biases are also interesting and definitely are present everywhere.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#54

What's the point of hiring based on attractiveness? What's the probability of one actually getting the drawers? Everyone can't be Keith Rabois you know....

Well, here's a dilemma for you: if you were hiring someone for a position in sales, and I told you that attractive women were more likely to make "the deal" than unattractive women, would you exclude attractiveness from your hiring criteria?

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#55
post #35
post #15

Born into the most visible of minorities, I grew up comfortably and amongst the majority while being unable to change how I looked, or pick the family I was born into, or the color of my skin. The single thing I've seen over and over: The only way ignorance is destroyed is when we take a minute to turn a stranger into a person by first acknowledging their existence as a member of our human family, and if possible lea…

have to be twice as good in as twice as many ways as others to get half the respect To have a really open discussion about this I think it's important to mention the disconnect between what people think is important and what get's people promoted. One of the least obvious examples is a willingness to leave.

Absolutely. Great point. It certainly doesn't happen alone in the one scenario I mentioned, but can otherwise too.

Generating more value than which you are paid is the ultimate measure.

The poisonous corporate cultures of winning favor and loyalty and trying to silver tounge their way up the ladder on the backs of others.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#56
post #4

So the theory presented here is: = Attractive women are disproportionately hired and promoted. Many of these attractive women are not intelligent enough for upper management therefore there is a limit to how high these women reach in an organization. At the same time, less attractive women languish in the lower rungs, far below their intellectual potential. Furthermore, this phenomena does not affect men because they…

IIRC data correlations from The National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (with data sets based on ~15,000 adolescents) showed that those who are rated very unattractive averaged an IQ of 94.2 where as those rated very attractive averaged 100.7. Interestingly Male IQ's differed by 8 points, where as women's differed by an average of 6 points.

The fact is there are conditions, specifically Down's, that have an effect on both physical development and mental development.

I think saying attractive women are disproportionately hired and promoted is misleading, because we're now ignoring actual social factors at work rather than simply attractiveness.

If we're going to look at stereotypes then lets look at why female CEO's exhibit male-typical personality traits, and associate that with the known tendency of employers to hire people they can relate to. Or the "catty" female stereotype. Or numerous other stereotypes that aren't actually contrary to evidence, because evidence says hiring women for attractiveness is exactly what employers should be doing, because on average it works.

The question the original article begs to question is "are employers hiring less skilled attractive employees over more skilled unattractive employees" and the article didn't answer it beyond pandering to the "ditzy blonde" stereotype of women in the office.

I think things like second generation college students perform better and that education may not cross gender gaps as effectively, correlated with less women being second generation college graduates is going to have a bigger impact on the supply of competent women into the higher echelons of a work force than men hiring with their dicks.

Today women tend to outnumber men in colleges, which in 40 years time might mean that this wave of second/third generation female graduates might also be dominating our CEO seats.

I'm pandering to a half dozen stereotypes here for the exact reason that we presently know nothing on why we have fewer females in top positions.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#57
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With image links so you can judge for yourself whether the conclusions of the article hold true or not. Personally I don't think so. Whilst I wouldn't describe any of these hugely succesful women as unattractive, I think they would compare to the attractiveness ratings of male CEOs (also a bit above average). Meg Whitman, HP (#10) https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Meg+Whitman&tbm=isch Virginia Rometty, IBM (#19) http…

As a whole, I think that's definitely a good-looking group of women.

The only way we're going to resolve this is some manner of blind comparison data gathering like the ancient "hotornot" dotcom from a decade or so ago, assuming the only people interested enough to provide data aren't already so interested in the topic that they recognize the CEOs on sight.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#59
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the developed world I would hope that virtually everyone has good enough health/nutrition and thus variation in height and appearance is due more to genetics.

Agreed, diet is a poor explanation for developed countries. What seems more likely is that the discrimination start earlier, in college or high school where athletic students have an easier time going to the best colleges simply because they are good at a sport (assuming height is correlated to being good at a sport popular in college)

That's only valid in the US though. Sports does not give you a direct way to a good university in Europe (at least, mainland Europe).
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