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Unlimited Vacation Time

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Re: Unlimited Vacation Time

#51

Post by Udo »

Back when we were doing our startup, we had a month's worth of vacation hard-coded into our employment contracts. Everyone got the same amount. This gave people a good measuring stick of what we expected under normal conditions. We didn't enforce the limit though, so people could take more if they wanted to (which happened very rarely). We also encouraged people to take time off, especially when they seemed burned out.

This worked amazingly well. It was one of the very few things we did right.

Re: Unlimited Vacation Time

#52

Post by mathattack »

Unlimited Vacation policies borrow from the Unlimited Sick Time. Most companies used to be explicit about sick days. "You get 6 per year." Then a few companies started with a more enlightened policy of, "We don't count, we trust you." Perhaps the early adopters of this policy viewed it as a trust issue. Then the data started coming in... On average people took a lot fewer than 6 when nobody was counting. The policy then turned in to a cost savings plan, and everyone started doing it.

The "You get as much vacation as you want" seems to be going that direction too. The early adopters were enlightened, thinking, "The value of showing trust to an engineer will more than pay for the rare abuse." It does save money, and now the cost cutters are seeing it too.

I've worked in several places where you get a month of vacation, and never get to use it all because you're too busy. Changing that to unlimited does not help much.

Some things that do help: - Mandate everyone takes a 2 week continuous vacation. This is done by banks for compliance reasons. (Harder to hide fraud if you're out 2 weeks in a row.) It is very beneficial, because this forces you to take at least 2 weeks of your allocated 4. - Allow paid sabbaticals. "After X years, you can take 2X weeks off for a continuous sabbatical that we pay for, and we'll pick up half of any coursework or travel costs." - Lead by example. This is VERY tough, because most good leaders like to lead by example showing that they're not above working hard. They can also lead by example taking their vacation.

In the end, none of this is altruistic. It's a way to keep talent motivated and feeling valued when they have lots of options. If you stiff a good engineer 2 weeks of vacation, they can always make it up by taking 2 weeks off before starting another job. :-)

Re: Unlimited Vacation Time

#53

Post by seldo »

Udo wrote: post #50
ghshephard wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We actually did have on employee take a full month. He was one of our rock start developer/architects who had basically built the foundation for our current generation of product. There was a natural, "division" line for him to take some time off. In general, though, your managers have a target that they manage to - and they negotiate you to that number. In our company, "Unlimited Vacation" means two weeks a years.

> In our company, "Unlimited Vacation" means two weeks a years. So, that's significantly less than the minimum you're getting by law in, say, a European country. And it sounds like you have to negotiate (or be perceived as a prodigy) to even get that. Am I missing something here? Because it sounds just awful.

Shhh! Americans are blissfully unaware that everyone in Europe is legally entitled to 2-3x more vacation than Americans get.

25 days of vacation is the biggest thing I miss about working in London :-p

Re: Unlimited Vacation Time

#54

Post by SatvikBeri »

There's a huge discussion here on how what really matters is company culture, not policies on how much vacation time you're allowed.

My takeaway is to only work for companies where you already know somebody outside of work. The problem is that it's really hard to get a sense of a company's culture during the interview process, so unless you have a friend who's willing to tell the truth you can easily be deceived. I know some companies that claimed to have 40 hour work weeks but people frequently came in on weekends. More surprisingly, I knew some companies where they claimed to be workaholics but generally held 9-5 hours.

So find someone you trust to tell you the raw truth about the company-not the whitewashed sales pitch. "2 weeks of official vacation, but people actually take 5" is a lot better than "unlimited vacation, but no one takes any."

Re: Unlimited Vacation Time

#55

Post by summerdown2 »

CWIZO wrote: post #40
dworin wrote: post #16

Like most things in business, the problem isn't with the policy, it's with management. If you create a culture that frowns upon employees taking vacation time, it won't matter if you give them unlimited vacation or only two weeks, nobody will take it. And if you create a culture that values rested, refreshed, happy employees, the total number of days isn't nearly as important. With that said, when unlimited vacation…

Can you explain why people are afraid to take a sick day? I'm not from the USA, so this might be a cultural thing or things just work different where I'm from. Also, since I'm moving there, does this apply to the UK?

It doesn't apply to the UK. If you're sick, be sick. You'll be paid, too.

A few caveats:

1. The above is for permanent positions. If you're a contractor the rules are different.

2. The above is true once you're through probation, which might be the first six months.

3. I have no idea what it's like in startups. I've only ever worked for big companies or the government.

But in general, sick leave is a benefit like a company car or flexible working. If it's in your contract, no one will mind you using it.

A point about holiday leave, too. In the UK, it's usual to take holidays. Everyone does, and then we talk about them in the office afterwards. It's considered part of being a rounded human being. Most holiday entitlements don't roll over, either, so if you don't use your 30 days (for example), you lose the remainder. This means there's a bit of a scramble to get them used up before rollover day. Everyone does this, and you'll be looked upon as a bit peculiar if you don't use the holidays you're entitled to.

Re: Unlimited Vacation Time

#56

Post by ghshephard »

Udo wrote: post #50
ghshephard wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We actually did have on employee take a full month. He was one of our rock start developer/architects who had basically built the foundation for our current generation of product. There was a natural, "division" line for him to take some time off. In general, though, your managers have a target that they manage to - and they negotiate you to that number. In our company, "Unlimited Vacation" means two weeks a years.

> In our company, "Unlimited Vacation" means two weeks a years. So, that's significantly less than the minimum you're getting by law in, say, a European country. And it sounds like you have to negotiate (or be perceived as a prodigy) to even get that. Am I missing something here? Because it sounds just awful.

Most people can get the two weeks if they put minimal effort into arranging projects to create an opening. Maybe one in 25 takes 3 weeks. I only know of two people ( in 500) who took a months vacation.

Re: Unlimited Vacation Time

#57

Post by kelnos »

fizx wrote: post #37
kelnos wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you worked at a company that offers unlimited vacation? I do (it's a recent change for us). It works fine. People take time off when they want to (one of the guys on my team is on a 2-week vacation in Thailand right now). Yes, some people (including myself) do the illogical guilt thing on occasion. But if your manager isn't encouraging you to take time off periodically, he's doing a bad job as your manager. Righ…

So we agree unlimited vacation really means "vacation at the mercy of your manager." The problem with "quit and find a company that doesn't lie to you about its culture" is that you can't tell if they're lying until you've made the enormous investment of quitting your previous job and getting hired there. Even if they're the good guys(tm), their investors can kick out the previous CEO, and management styles can chang…

So we agree unlimited vacation really means "vacation at the mercy of your manager."

Vacation is always at the mercy of your manager, regardless if it's unlimited or not.

So ok, you clearly are flat-out cynical about all this stuff so... don't work for a company with unlimited vacation. It works just fine for some of us, who work for reasonable companies. That's a fact, regardless of your feelings on the matter.

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