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The Myth of a Stagnant Middle Class

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51–60 of 75 posts

Re: The Myth of a Stagnant Middle Class

#51

This article also lacks any economic literacy based on one simple fact: When statistics report that middle class wages have been stagnant for decades (by this article's own account, 48 years), remember this figure is already adjusted for inflation. This means that the buying power of the 2013 dollar has already been normalized to the power of the 1982 dollar (or whenever) primarily against the price of the costs of n…

Where does this idea that income inequality indicates the downfall of a civilisation come from? It doesn't seem to be historically true, given the vast income inequality in, say, Regency England, or pretty much any part of classical Roman history after the early Republic, or, hell, pretty much any civilisation ever that lasted any amount of time had some kind of aristocracy with all the inequality that entails...

Re: The Myth of a Stagnant Middle Class

#52
Over the last thirty years, households have gone from predominantly single bread winner, to dual earner. And at the same time, consumer debt has done up while savings have gone down.

Now, if worker compensation was growing significantly faster than inflation, wouldn't we expect the amount of disposable income to be higher, and hence savings and debt to be lower? Why were Americans forced to tap home equity and credit cards to continue consumption? Either prices went up, or people started consuming a lot more. The article claims disposable income went up, but if that's the case, why the credit binge? Doesn't add up.

Moreover, even if you ignore this, the share of national income of the bottom quintiles has been dropping monotonically over the last 30 years, but it was rising with the rest of the quintiles prior to that. That tends to indicate that broad based productivity increases were accruing benefits to workers. Now it tends to indicate that productivity increases accrue solely to capital and not labor. It is not a stable situation.

The apologetics seem designed to avoid debate about the problem, just like climate change, because the assumed solutions would conflict with closely held ideological beliefs. That is, ideological belief trumps contradictory data.

Re: The Myth of a Stagnant Middle Class

#53

In the early 1970s, WSJ writers could have written an article pointing at how much better the middle class in the US had done over the past 40 years. Now they have to resort to this sophistry. When they admit the average hourly wage of nonsupervisory workers has remained about the same, what that actually means it is lower than it was in the early 1970s, adjusted for inflation. So one point they make is workers are p…

In the early 1970s, WSJ writers could have written an article pointing at how much better the middle class in the US had done over the past 40 years. You really think you'd rather be the median income 25 year old in 1973 vs. 2013? It's not sophistry to point out that today's median 25 year old has massive advantages in health, education, technology and basic quality of life over his 1973 equivalent. The real average…

What about happiness? Hope for the future? Ability to have your spouse raise the kids at home while you earned enough to pay for a house and car?

And the idea that life expectancy is what counts is absurd. 79 years of fighting for jobs where you're worked like mad fighting every week to stay out of debt while trying to get your kids some semblance of education in shittier and shittier school systems sure sounds a hell of a lot nicer than the past because what, iPhones exist?

Re: The Myth of a Stagnant Middle Class

#54
There have been a lot of posts to HN, including submissions of articles with a point of view contrary to this article, claiming that the current generation of young people are "screwed" or the like. Both of my two older sons have netbook computers and mobile phones (not the Apple brand) even though our family income is solidly in the range described by the article. My second son recently mail-ordered computer parts and assembled a new desktop PC for my wife, which is quite a blessing. The simple point of fact is that young people today have opportunity to enjoy goods and services that were unavailable and unimaginable to their parents at the same age. All four of my children have had opportunity to obtain good education that prepares them for productive adult life--my oldest son is already working full-time as a programmer for a start-up. We have spent out of pocket more than most American families to pursue educational opportunities for them at the primary and secondary level of education, largely through homeschooling, but we can afford what we did with a middle-class income. We live in a nice house (rented, in our case) in a peaceful, crime-free neighborhood, and travel as we have occasion to travel. Our lifestyle has improved over the lifestyle I grew up with.

As a younger Baby Boomer, I am prime political fodder for appeals to "protect Social Security." Yet I support entitlement reform, even at my short-term detriment, because I care about my children. I do agree that young people today need to have older people like me drain less of the money they earn through work to fund entitlements paid to me. Rather, I support reforms that raise the retirement age and age of eligibility for other old-age benefits and put more of the economy's money in the hands of working people who can best decide how to spend it, funding entitlement programs on a more actuarially sound basis. Understanding the basic facts about the economy is an important first step for hackers and other entrepreneurs to have a business environment in which they can innovate and invest. Current policies are unsustainable and anyway are based on false factual premises. Americans can buy more of what they want for fewer hours of work than ever before in human history. Hackers can keep right on innovating, because Americans will never feel like they have enough. History makes that clear.

Re: The Myth of a Stagnant Middle Class

#55

In the early 1970s, WSJ writers could have written an article pointing at how much better the middle class in the US had done over the past 40 years. Now they have to resort to this sophistry. When they admit the average hourly wage of nonsupervisory workers has remained about the same, what that actually means it is lower than it was in the early 1970s, adjusted for inflation. So one point they make is workers are p…

So one point they make is workers are paying more to their HMOs than ever, so the % of fringe benefits to wages has increased. This is proof against a stagnant middle class? No, the point is that compensation/worker is up, but wages/worker is down, implying that non-wage compensation/worker is up. Then that a one income household can not cut it any more is mentioned. Define "cut it". If "cut it" means "purchase the s…

The thesis of the article is middle class stagnation (the actual truth is, inflation-adjusted hourly wages have fallen since the early 1970s, they have not stagnated). These "increased benefits" are due to skyrocketing health costs which the employer has been paying, not any new fringe benefits. Because employers in the US have been fighting universal healthcare for decades, unlike every other industrialized country. They fight tooth and nail to stop universal health care with campaign donations, then cry how much they have to pay into the HMOs of their workers.

A worker who purchases the same basket of goods and services that the typical family has in 1970 is not going to "cut it". To make the same wage he did in 1970, he will now have to pay for his own job training, college degree and so forth. Employers now require more education from workers. The typical family is now forced to pay a new expense in their basket - their own training and educational costs - forced meaning if they want to remain a typical family, and not fall further then they already have.

Re: The Myth of a Stagnant Middle Class

#56
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing. But the article makes no attempt to address income inequality. Right, because that's a losing argument for him. But that's the concern of "progressives." He's using the classic tactic of pretending that the other side is arguing something different than they are, then attacking that argument. > 1. Has the middle class stagnated over the last n decades? What does "stagnated" mean? Humans think relatively, n…

This is disingenuous. Progressives routinely frame the argument in zero-sum terms, as though 1) there is a pie; 2) the rich have taken a larger share of that pie; and 3) this means that the poor are getting less than they got before. The argument this article makes is that the pie is getting bigger, so everyone's share is bigger. You might still think this is a bad thing, but you should at least understand the argume…

Just because the pie is getting bigger doesn't mean it's inaccurate to characterize the situation in zero-sum terms. E.g. the gain in total national wealth from 1960 - Present is a fixed amount--who got what part of that is zero-sum.

More importantly, of course everyone's share is getting bigger. That's been the long-term trend ever since people started farming. What's important is whose slice is getting bigger faster relative to the other slices. Pointing out that the middle class's slice is getting bigger in absolute terms and saying they should be content with that is like saying you should be fine with a stock that returns 1% over inflation. Why should you complain--you're getting richer! Of course, an investor expects to get richer. What he cares about is his return relative to that of other stocks.

Re: The Myth of a Stagnant Middle Class

#57
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the early 1970s, WSJ writers could have written an article pointing at how much better the middle class in the US had done over the past 40 years. You really think you'd rather be the median income 25 year old in 1973 vs. 2013? It's not sophistry to point out that today's median 25 year old has massive advantages in health, education, technology and basic quality of life over his 1973 equivalent. The real average…

What about happiness? Hope for the future? Ability to have your spouse raise the kids at home while you earned enough to pay for a house and car? And the idea that life expectancy is what counts is absurd. 79 years of fighting for jobs where you're worked like mad fighting every week to stay out of debt while trying to get your kids some semblance of education in shittier and shittier school systems sure sounds a hel…

I think you are looking at the past with rose-tinted glasses if you think "hope for the future" was on a real win streak in the '70s. (See: Vietnam, Watergate, Arab oil embargo, stagflation...)

Also, in the '70s, it wasn't the "spouse" raising the kids at home, it was the wife. The huge increase in available roles for women is another thing not captured by the average real wage (and as the piece points out, probably had a negative impact on it).

Re: The Myth of a Stagnant Middle Class

#58
post #27

This article is pretty much geared for people who can't do math (ironically, considering the ostensible target demographic of the WSJ). 1) Pointing out that things have gotten cheaper is specious. Things have gotten cheaper for rich people too. One would expect technological progress to make things cheaper over time--what does that have to do with income distribution within the country? 2) Average worker productivity…

Things have gotten cheaper for rich people too. One would expect technological progress to make things cheaper over time--what does that have to do with income distribution within the country? Nothing. But the article makes no attempt to address income inequality. These are two different questions: 1. Has the middle class stagnated over the last n decades? 2. Has the middle class improved its share of national income…

The first question is bordering on bad faith.

It's nigh-on-tautological that technological advances will ensure that being middle class in 2010 is 'better' than being middle class in 1970. [1]

But more air conditioning, computers and even cell phones does not negate the argument that productivity and wage gains have diverged.

And how else would one fairly assess, in the aggregate, if workers are being rewarded for their work, than to see if greater productivity is being rewarded with greater wages? And how else does one describe the situation where continued productivity gains were met with low-to-no gains in wealth, other than "stagnation"?

For we're not talking about absolute shares of national income here. Economics is no zero-sum gain. There are net increases. There is wealth creation. And we're talking about where this created wealth has gone. And for the last several decades, it hasn't gone to the workers. Even though their productivity has continued to increase and, historically at least, those two have tended to increase together.

Framing the situation in terms of your first question is tantamount to the arguments that poverty today isn't a problem simply because, historically, the poor have never lived so well.

It's an irrelevant distraction used to keep people from asking the second question. [2]

[1] If technological gains stopped delivering improved quality of life, we'd be facing a civilization-level calamity that would render concerns about productivity gains less than irrelevant. Because it would necessarily imply that technological advances had topped out and resources were now becoming scarce.

[2] Asserting that questions of economic fairness and health are answered solely by whether today's workers are doing at least as well as yesterday's workers is pretty close to anti-American. To accept that argument, one would have to believe that it's not necessary for hard work to be rewarded. All those "up by your boot-straps" stories are contingent upon harder and smarter work being rewarded. And here we're staring at an economy-wide case where harder and smarter work has simply been the baseline for continued employment. It's no longer "do well and move up." It's "do well or move out."

Re: The Myth of a Stagnant Middle Class

#59

There have been a lot of posts to HN, including submissions of articles with a point of view contrary to this article, claiming that the current generation of young people are "screwed" or the like. Both of my two older sons have netbook computers and mobile phones (not the Apple brand) even though our family income is solidly in the range described by the article. My second son recently mail-ordered computer parts a…

If GNP has been rising, why does Social Security and Medicare have to go? This is one of the few things I'll be able to get a return on with the taxes I pay.

Every year the Pentagon begs the House to reduce military spending. The House ignores this and spends money on pet military contractors in their states. The US has military bases in Cuba, Djibouti, Germany, Kyrgyzstan and many other places. The US is designing a new class of $14 billion aircraft carriers. The US has 11 active aircraft carriers. The only other country with more than 1 active aircraft carrier is Italy, which has 2 - and Italy is not exactly a national security threat. The US has bases their as well, some air force guys hot dogging their planes flew through a cable car cable killing 20 people.

Why do I have to have my Social Security cut, with GNP rising, but the army can torture prisoners in Abu Ghraib, laughing manically as they videotape how they're torturing prisoners and forcing them to masturbate? Why do I have to fund the military of Honduras, which overthrew the elected government their? These expenses are never on the chopping block, just any benefits that I and the average American might pull out of the system. TARP is never on the chopping block, just anything I might pull from the tax system I've paid so much into.

Re: The Myth of a Stagnant Middle Class

#60

The one thing seems to have been omitted is housing costs? I am in the UK and housing costs have risen very sharply thus eliminating any other reductions on pricing. This is one area the current generation is much worse off, rents are high, and purchase prices even higher. My parents with a single relatively low income could afford a house, my sibling and his partner with two reasonable incomes can't afford a one bed…

In the US, housing values have crashed since the bubble burst in early 2007. Americans have a bigger problem securing mortgages than they do finding an affordable home.
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