Breaking the MintEye image CAPTCHA in 23 lines of Python

The point, which for some reason you are not willing to concede, is that if you are going to claim that you solved a problem with x lines of programming language z the line count needs to be real. You can't use something like a library with 10,000 lines of C++ code to then claim that you solved a problem with two lines of Python (or whatever):

    import huge_code_base
    print huge_code_base.solve()

And that's the end of the conversation, isn't it?

You could have simply modified your program based on my friendly input and do it correctly. How was jabbing me in the eye a better choice? Particularly when you don't even know me. That's unfortunate.

Perhaps you might consider emailing me privately? I'll provide you with references. See my HN profile for the address.

I have only devoted somewhere between 20 to 25 years of my life to, among other things, deal with accurate color and image processing in both hardware and software. So, yeah, I know a thing or two about the subject.

There's doing it right and there's doing it wrong. Averaging RGB values to derive grayscale is --and I am trying hard not to say what I really want to say-- not the right way to do it.

Part of the context here is to consider the source of the images you might be processing. The very design of every single camera in the market is based on a relationship between these color primaries that is to be maintained across the processing pipeline.

No device I know of will uniformly average the RGB channels as this is simply the wrong way to process and deal with color accurately. You can get away with this kind of thing for very specific applications (if you are computationally limited AND know exactly what you are doing).

Even then, you can, as I have done in hardware a few times, massage the coefficients to better reflect reality. One such example is the implementation of a "cheap" motion detection facility in hardware (FPGA). In this case floating point math is not an option (and it wouldn't make sense) so you can either futz with the coefficients or use a set of pre-computed lookup tables to do it accurately.

In some cases you can even ignore red and blue and just use green as reference. Again, just like before, knowing the application and fully understanding what you are doing is critical when making such choices.

In this case you are trying to detect edges in an image that is, more than likely, not artificial. In other words, it might be a photograph. It, more than likely, came through or is a JPG image. This means that the image, regardless of source, was converted to YCbCr color space and then handed back to you as RGB. If you want to accurately work with actual image data and not some distorted, contrast-reduced or contrast altered grayscale image the only way to do it is to recover the Y component from the RGB source data by using the correct mathematical approach.

Really, it ain't that hard:

Y = (0.299 * R) + (0.587 * G) + (0.114 * B)

This corresponds to CCIR601. Things can get a little confusing as the primaries were modified slightly for REC709 (another imaging standard). JPEG is defined around CCIR601 primaries, so the above noted coefficients are correct for that application.

To anyone dealing with color professionally these shortcut "solutions" reveal nothing but utter ignorance in the underlying science. I do not intend this as an insult, it's just a fact. Saving a very specific and valid reason for taking such shortcuts these "solutions" are always a bad idea.

I happen to have a pretty good handle on --among other things-- color science. I am, however, clueless about building rockets. That said, if I wanted to build a rocket you can bet I'd spend a non-trivial amount of time learning as much about the subject as possible before using uninformed shortcut solutions.

Real Color Scientists cringe at this sort of stuff because, in darker times, it made it into all kinds of programs written by color-science-ignorant programmers. These programs caused untold havoc with image processing. Thankfully things are far better now as those doing serious work with images have taken the time to understand and learn about color science.

If you really want to learn to process images properly and accurately forget that the idea of (R+G+B)/3 ever existed, remove it from your vocabulary and replace it with the above.

Also, go browse around the Rochester Institute of Technology website. I spent a bit of time there. Color Science is one of their focal points. Lots of good info there, even a number of interesting courses.

That aside, I really appreciate your effort of teaching me about converting RGB values to gray scale.

On another hand, I don't think that converting the image to something that is accurate to the human eye is something we want to do here (we're not going to show the result to one anyways). Using your formula we would end up overly favoring green levels for our edge detection, even though we want to treat all colors equally. Well, not if the next thing you're going to argue about is the significance of different levels of blue to edge detection and that green in general is the better color for detecting edges.

Call me mean or just stupid, but for my part I think we both should reflect on how much amateurishness we can tolerate and when to just not reply to something.

Sometimes trying to show someone how ridiculous he comes across by mimicking his behavior leads to people wasting countless hours on a pointless internet argument, that at some point is fighting over something that isn't even really related to the main points the authors were trying to prove.

I would have usually left it like that, but in this case I felt bad because you actually made a great effort explaining all that stuff and yourself. Thought it might be fair to tell you how I see this.

Still some interesting stuff, but a lot of information. You should get a blog and write some lengthy (in a good way) posts about this. You seem to have quite a lot to tell people about this, and also a desire to.

I'll continue feeling a little bad about this while I'm sleeping.

Good night

chmod

Edit/PS: Yes, I thought about Blade Runner while writing the first sentence.