Lenovo splits the Think brand into a separate group • Hacker News Board

Re: Lenovo splits the Think brand into a separate group

#51

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

wyclif wrote: post #26

djmdjm wrote: post #11

I hope this doesn't mean further abandoning the Thinkpad design values (centered around excellence in functional design) to compete on the ones that Apple has been so successful on (excellence in visual design). If they do they won't win and will mess up an excellent and unique brand in the process. They've already started down this road IMO, dropping their near-perfect keyboard for a trendy chiclet one in the x230.…

The older ThinkPad keyboard design is the example I thought of immediately. The classic ThinkPads had keyboards designed for people who touch type— they were supremely functional. Not a "buckling spring" IBM Model M keyboard— they use foam rubber under the keys like all other modern keyboards, I suspect—but still more responsive and better for people like me who don't need to look at the keyboard when programming or…

I would kill fr a laptop with a model M keyboard built into it. There must be some way to simulate spring action in a thin keyboard setup.

Most of us don't need to look at the keyboard when writing, chiclet keyboards are completely ok for that. You don't really need the peaked edges to find the keys.

Re: Lenovo splits the Think brand into a separate group

#52

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 2:39 PM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #8

bitwize wrote: post #3

I think Lenovo wants to be associated more with machines like the Yoga, even though the dependable ThinkPad workhorses are who brought them to the dance.

I think you're reading this backwards, I think this is like Toyota splitting off Lexus into a separate, high-end brand.

No, it's more like Chrysler spinning off Mercedes into its own high end brand.

Re: Lenovo splits the Think brand into a separate group

#53

Post by jfb » Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 2:49 PM UTC

I hope that this succeeds, because I hate not having a good brand to recommend to people who want a Windows laptop, but I am skeptical that refocusing on business needs is the way to build a product that humans will love.

Re: Lenovo splits the Think brand into a separate group

#54

Post by kybernetyk » Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 3:07 PM UTC

atondwal wrote: post #42

kybernetyk wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I'm speaking purely from my experience and there's a big chance that I'm stupid but: I've tried running Arch as my main OS in the last year. I needed a weekend to configure the OS and even wrote a little daemon to handle the conservative fan spin ups on my overheating Macbook Pro. After that it was great as long as it lasted. But then the OS just died 3 times. What had I done? A simple > pacman -Syu was enough. W…

If all the initscripts and kernel updates break Arch, then you probably made a mistake or two in some conf file installing it. (eg not having /boot correctly in the fstab will break you on every kerenl update, for example)

Maybe I did. But my point is: I need a system that just works without constant maintenance from my side. So Arch is not really for me.

Re: Lenovo splits the Think brand into a separate group

#55

Post by smackfu » Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 3:36 PM UTC

kybernetyk wrote: post #37

meaty wrote: post #18

Great idea. This will save the following thing happening again and again: 1. Someone asks me for a laptop recommendation. 2. I tell them "ThinkPad T-series" and state you can get them online for the price of a mid-range laptop in a retail outfit from http://www.lenovo.com/ with a direct link to the product page - they say thank you. 3. Some time passes 4. I get a call from the person saying they bought a "Lenovo" lap…

> People just don't get the difference between good and crap, which is to be honest, where Apple are quite good. Apple's secret is to only built good stuff and don't try to serve the cheap crap market. I hope the new ThinkPad brand will do the same.

Right. Most of the laptops at Best Buy are under $600, $400 below Apple's lowest offering.

Re: Lenovo splits the Think brand into a separate group

#56

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 3:57 PM UTC

meaty wrote: post #19

msutherl wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the same way. The ThinkPad is the only computer that could potentially tempt me away from my MacBook. So far I'm stuck to OS X though (dreaming of Arch minimalism).

Arch is a maintenance nightmare if you want to be productive.

[deleted]

Re: Lenovo splits the Think brand into a separate group

#57

Post by meaty » Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 4:17 PM UTC

wyclif wrote: post #24

meaty wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arch is a maintenance nightmare if you want to be productive.

I'm puzzled by this comment. Arch values elegance, code correctness, and minimalism. Initially Arch installs a very minimal base system, and package management is done via rolling release. Perhaps you should explain exactly how Arch is a "maintenance nightmare."

Sorry I should have clarified the point up front:

The initial configuration is tiresome and complicated. While knowing the details is important, using them as a barrier to entry i.e. by removing the arch installer is just a hideous waste of time.

Occasionally, I've had a broken system, packages or dependency failure which has left me in the royal shit with a recovery disk and a text editor.

pacman has no transactional semantics around it so you can't stage a package or roll it back easily and no-destructively as you can in deb and RPM based distributions.

It relies on the default configuration of all pieces of software i.e. minimal changes to upstream. This is good and all, but most of the upstreams have retarded and dangerous by default configurations. You have to vet every damn package upgrade.

As for rolling upgrades, introducing major new package versions mid-cycle is a major risk, particularly when it comes to large critical packages such as DB engines and web servers. Minor version changes can literally shred you. MySQL are very good at that for example (I no longer use their product due to the awful bugs in early 5.0.x release).

I see people above are moaning about Ubuntu in comparison. In fact that is just as bad, but for a different reason: it's just hideously mismanaged.

They ignore the collective knowledge and mini frameworks that are included in other distributions (for example the /etc/apache2 structure in Debian derivatives). These are incredibly powerful at managing configuration through upgrades etc so hours with diff aren't required.

To be honest, I have a virtual machine floating around which was once a physical machine. It was deployed on a Compaq Professional Workstation 5000 (nice dual Pentium Pro 200 with 128Mb of RAM, 4 Matrox heads and 18Gb of SCSI disks) with Debian 2.0.

This installation is now at Debian 6.0. This has been accomplished EASILY with ONLY dist-upgrades since day one and has survived about 5 bits of hardware.

That's how it should be. Rolling releases are dangerous. Planned staged releases.

And no I don't particularly care that my Ruby VM is X years out of date.

Re: Lenovo splits the Think brand into a separate group

#58

Post by lifeformed » Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 4:19 PM UTC

kybernetyk wrote: post #36

djmdjm wrote: post #11

I hope this doesn't mean further abandoning the Thinkpad design values (centered around excellence in functional design) to compete on the ones that Apple has been so successful on (excellence in visual design). If they do they won't win and will mess up an excellent and unique brand in the process. They've already started down this road IMO, dropping their near-perfect keyboard for a trendy chiclet one in the x230.…

I don't know but my Macbook Pro feels pretty functional. Things like the Magsafe power connector or the superb touchpad don't just look pretty. Only because it looks nice doesn't mean it's useless. And only because it's functional doesn't mean it has to look like a plastic brick from an 80s sci-fi movie.

I don't think he was saying that Macs don't have good functional design, rather that excellent visual design is the top priority. While Macs do work great, there are some instances where it's apparent that they valued aesthetics over functionality, such as nice-looking but short-lived power cord cables.

Re: Lenovo splits the Think brand into a separate group

#59

Post by meaty » Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 4:19 PM UTC

rjh29 wrote: post #46

meaty wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arch is a maintenance nightmare if you want to be productive.

I've spent a couple of hours a few times a year having to maintain my OS so far. I vastly prefer this to Ubuntu, where pretty much everything broke every 6 months. The tradeoff is that you get new and shiny software continually.

Try Debian stable. I've had a single installation last for 13 years so far.

New and shiny is considerably less important than working and tested the first time something breaks.

Re: Lenovo splits the Think brand into a separate group

#60

Post by w1ntermute » Sun, Jan 06, 2013, 4:59 PM UTC

djmdjm wrote: post #11

I hope this doesn't mean further abandoning the Thinkpad design values (centered around excellence in functional design) to compete on the ones that Apple has been so successful on (excellence in visual design). If they do they won't win and will mess up an excellent and unique brand in the process. They've already started down this road IMO, dropping their near-perfect keyboard for a trendy chiclet one in the x230.…

As a long-time ThinkPad user, the new keyboard (which I have on my X1 Carbon) is not nearly as big of a problem as you're making it out to be. I got used to it fairly quickly, and I think I like it better now.

But more importantly, Lenovo has really raised the bar in terms of size and weight with the X1 Carbon. I don't think they are abandoning functionality at all.