Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#51

Post by secondChrome » Fri, Dec 28, 2012, 12:34 AM UTC

jsiarto wrote: post #13

jcampbell1 wrote: post #8

I have never understood residential solar. Seems like a gimmick. Why would I want these panels on my roof? It seems like hosting a server in your basement. It is appealing in theory, but silly in practice. If I just hosted my panels at a site where other people hosted their solar panels, you could probably install it for less than $1.00 per watt.

Well for one, in some parts of the country residential solar means a $0/mo electric bills and in somes cases you spin the meter in reverse and build a credit. The panels themselves are maintenance-free, have 20-30 year warranties and (personally) just look plain cool. I have a family member who has a large array on his roof and he runs his entire house and charges his Tesla all off the grid. He's still connected, but…

I think jcampbell1's point is why bother putting the pannels on top of your own roof? Instead, buy your pannels on some other shared property that is already connected to the grid, and share the overhead costs. The same power would be sold back to the grid and offset your own home's power. I call this the co-op model, and I think it's also appealing for areas where not everyone is a home-owner.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#52

Post by DannyBee » Fri, Dec 28, 2012, 12:42 AM UTC

tsotha wrote: post #45

DannyBee wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a solar city PPA. I suspect what you see on their website is just to grab customers. They don't try to snow anyone, at least IME. They will give you sheets that show exactly what they estimate and are willing to guarantee a year, and show exactly how all the numbers are derived. 5 of my friends (all engineers, actually) are doing PPA's as well. A few things: 1. Sadly, a lot of folks try to compare generation c…

What is the minimum lease period?

No idea. I didn't care, but it's probably at least 10 years. Part of their money from PPA's comes from selling renewable energy credits/etc, i'm sure the lease period length accounts for this.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#53

Post by arrrg » Fri, Dec 28, 2012, 1:01 AM UTC

uvdiv wrote: post #30

arrrg wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it’s not, silly. There aren’t any tax breaks for solar installations in Germany. There are guaranteed prices energy companies have to pay for solar energy from small private installations. And besides, this is about the cost of the installation. You did read the article?

There's a tax break right in the article: "They pay more in sales tax (German installers are exempt)." But you're right, that the largest subsidy is not paid out of tax money, but through a (very large [0]) mandated surcharge on private utility bills. There's little practical difference. It's functionally equivalent to a tax subsidy funded by a tax on electricity. [0] http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/25/eu-oett…

That’s not a tax break specific to solar installations. In fact, it’s not a tax break at all. It is just a consequence of how German tax law is constructed. It has nothing to do with subsidizing solar installations.

If you register your private solar installation as a business, you are exempt from paying sales tax if you also pay revenue tax (= sales tax) for the energy you are selling. Just like the baker buying her oven, if a business buys something for the business, it is (usually) exempt from paying sales tax for it – since sales tax is supposed to be only paid once, not several times.

You know, what annoys me is ignorance about the actual policies and then pontificating as if you have it all figured out.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#54

Post by redwood » Fri, Dec 28, 2012, 2:37 AM UTC

jusben1369 wrote: post #36

redwood wrote: post #32

Red tape is a big part of the cost in the US and a problem that needs to be solved. Every locality and state has its own requirements, inspections, licenses etc. A solar industry insider told me one of the worst solar markets in California is Palo Alto. Wealthy, green, suburban, techy: how can this be? The city runs its own utilities and makes it hard to install (apparently). Regulations need to be streamlined.

My first thought when reading this was that it was really confusing cause and effect and (deliberately?) failing to cover the alternatives to solar. So I was pleased to see the currently top rated comment here started out with:"The reason is because grid power is more expensive in Germany: $0.30/kWh compared to $0.10/kWh on average in the US. Therefore potential customers are easier to convince to use solar in German…

Good points, but on the flipside, German solar is probably roughly a third as productive as sunny American states could be... so when you factor in the added output per equivalent installation, the 3x grid cost should be roughly mitigated. However, the trouble is the costs are not primarily correlated with size of installation and the cost of the panels themselves are no longer the primary cost driver. This means tertiary costs like installation and regulation, which do not necessarily scale with system size, are an important and complex piece.

edit: it's not 3x but still as high as 2.5x in some places: http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/us_germany_spain/pv_map_us_ge... and more if you compare to northern Germany. Anyway some parts of the US have significantly higher power costs than others (not surprisingly these are generally good solar sales markets)

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#55

Post by dredmorbius » Fri, Dec 28, 2012, 2:56 AM UTC

pge wrote: post #26

One factor that does not seem to have been explored is financing costs. As I understand the situation in the US, residential solar is often financed by banks, and capital for this type is expensive right now, leading to high costs. Anyone in the industry know whether that could account for the cost discrepancy?

You sure about that?

Interest rates are at all-time lows. Lending standards may make loans unavailable, but the cost of capital is anything but high.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#56

Post by gte910h » Fri, Dec 28, 2012, 5:22 PM UTC

jusben1369 wrote: post #37

gte910h wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It turns a surface that mostly transfers heat into your attic into a surface that transfers less heat into your attic and a great deal of electricity into your house during the part of the day that requires the most air conditioning. If you live anywhere that's hot much of the year, it's a great deal, dropping your electric bill precipitously and recouping costs often in 2-4 years in that type of situation (as oppose…

Wait Atlanta? I was with you until you hit an incredibly hot city with a therefore powerful sun.

Atlanta is FILLED with very tall trees. Which then fall on your panels and break them.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=google+maps+atlanta&hl=en...

Those large green trees? They're 60-160 feet tall. Drop branches every severe wind. There all over the place (Although most are under a hundred feet tall). They knock out our power lines, our cable lines and when they fall, our houses (luckily most people remove them long before that point).

There are certainly suburban areas near Atlanta where they've been clear cut in their past as part of their transformation into chicken farms (Before being turned into housing), and those locations would likely be EXCELLENT areas for solar panels.

But anywhere that has original trees, nope.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#57

Post by walshemj » Sat, Dec 29, 2012, 3:34 PM UTC

arrrg wrote: post #53

uvdiv wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a tax break right in the article: "They pay more in sales tax (German installers are exempt)." But you're right, that the largest subsidy is not paid out of tax money, but through a (very large [0]) mandated surcharge on private utility bills. There's little practical difference. It's functionally equivalent to a tax subsidy funded by a tax on electricity. [0] http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/25/eu-oett…

That’s not a tax break specific to solar installations. In fact, it’s not a tax break at all. It is just a consequence of how German tax law is constructed. It has nothing to do with subsidizing solar installations. If you register your private solar installation as a business, you are exempt from paying sales tax if you also pay revenue tax (= sales tax) for the energy you are selling. Just like the baker buying her…

if the tax law is constructed to have advantages for these "home businesses" then its a tax break and don't get me started on the "hobby" farms that get subsidy's from the CAP budget.

An I am a pro EU guy you can see why Ukip are gaining in popularity