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Stop Generalizing About Europe

jonasbentzen.com

51–60 of 369 posts

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#51
As a European myself, I think it is fine to generalize* about Europe. Many points in Varsavsky's blog post were correct and it raised awareness of some things to consider. Sure, it had its omissions and errors, but also remember it was a blog post, not an article in a peer reviewed journal. Reading the article + the ensuing hacker news discussion one is already much better informed.

What is naive is to expect some blog post to give you an overarching view of a very complex subject. Kind of like reading a wikipedia article something and expecting to be expert on the subject matter after that.

*Making generalizations is a wonderful property of the human brain. Without that we'd all be lost in the fractal complexity of everyday detail.

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#52
A good and bad article all in one.

It's good, because it addresses some common misconceptions.

It's bad, because it implies that you can't generalize about anything nor anyone. Obviously, there are - broadly - common traits in Europe. The point is fine, to the extent that the broader generalizations you make, the more people will be described incorrectly - and you cite some great numbers to emphasize that.

The post makes it sound as if there is some scientific constant for maximum population size you can generalize about.

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#53
Created an account just to state this: tech people please don't go into discussing politics / economics. Brits want to exit EU because of wars in the past? This is ridiculous!

What about the real reasons: 1. Britain has 70% of its laws created by the EU by burocrats who were never voted into the office and can't be voted out of the office: Barroso (President of the European Commission) and Von Rumpoy (whatever his name - never elected President of the UE). 70% of British laws are created by unelected foreigners who definitely don't share their anglo-saxon heritage, focusing more on Germany-centered economic views.

Germany has always been goods producer. UK has always been a trading nation. You say forcing UK to obey Teutonian laws will prevent future wars and upheaval and I'm telling you it may as well cause them (look at another country not consistent with German economic policies: Greece)

Not to mention other things: UK is banned from entering into trade treaties with Canada, Australia, India, and the US - their historical partners - EU has to do it for them! They have to accept EU imposed anti-British customs with India, Australia and Canada because by the EU law they have to trade openly with EU and mustn't with Anglo-Saxon world. And economically - this is killing them. EU exports into UK much more than UK into EU. Why bother? It's not like they will loose business once outside of the block.

And other things - newly passed EU laws that will basically kill London's stock exchange and investment banks to keep German tax payers happy.

THIS and not history of wars is the cause of 2 in 3 Britons being in favor of EU exit. It's just bad business for them and their economy and nobody in the EU seem to care. As long as the Chancellor is happy.

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#54
I think a lot of us need to admit that the author is right. I, for one, do generalize about Europe. I think of social democracies with high taxes. I think of arcane rules and regulations to start and run a business. And most of all, I limit the term "Europe" to include about 20 of the 50 European countries. I will never think of Russia as a European country. If I entered a contest and won a vacation to "Europe" - and the destination turned out to be Albania - I'd be thinking "Wat?!? That's not Europe."

From the outside, the term "Europe" is a confusing morass of distinctions. There's Europe, the Eurozone, the EU. The UN also has a geoscheme that is different than all three of those. Hell, half of Americans probably don't know the difference between England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom.

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#55
post #51

As a European myself, I think it is fine to generalize* about Europe. Many points in Varsavsky's blog post were correct and it raised awareness of some things to consider. Sure, it had its omissions and errors, but also remember it was a blog post, not an article in a peer reviewed journal. Reading the article + the ensuing hacker news discussion one is already much better informed. What is naive is to expect some bl…

> Making generalizations is a wonderful property of the human brain. Without that we'd all be lost in the fractal complexity of everyday detail.

Sure - the problem is when the generalizations are so broad as to become complete falsehoods. If I went to Upper East Side in New York and concluded that Americans are extremely wealthy persons who live in townhouses, I would be incorrect.

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#56

This post feels awfully pedantic. While it may not be clear to non-Americans, when Americans talk about "Europe", they're generally talking about Western Europe, not Eastern, and are excluding the UK too. They almost certainly aren't including Russia. (Just like when Americans talk about Asia, they aren't usually thinking of India.) Of course, that's geographically inaccurate -- but it's what we usually mean. The Eur…

> The Europe that Americans refer to does mostly use the

> Euro, have better-distributed wealth, plenty of consumers,

> and ambivalent feelings toward entrepreneurs in most of

> its parts.

Well, no it doesn't. Italy and Greece are extremely different to Scandinavia. At least regarding to things like temperament and culture. They are much more like Bulgaria and Turkey, though they may not really be willing to admit that. You can't really sell to Italians by operating in Denmark. That's not to say that you can sell to Italians by operating in Bulgaria either. Especially true for things like enterprise software, eg. accounting systems. "Better distributed wealth" and "use the Euro" do not alleviate the law and language bariers. What these two things do help about is only not having to carry 10 different currencies in you pocket. Which is not at all true if you have to visit one of the non-Euro states.

There is though one type of company that greatly benefits by the situation. And that is the international mega-corp. They can afford to produce or provide services from Bulgaria and sell to the whole world. IBM, HP, VMWare, Ubisoft, Crytek and on and on... All have offices in Sofia, Bulgaria. This is a result of the non-uniform wealth distribution. They can sell to Western Europe and U.S.A while being close to them, using workforce that speaks English and has tradition in technical sciences, while at the same time being relatively cheap.

As a result, Bulgarians don't have ambivalent feelings toward enterpreneurs at all.

So no, you can't generalize. You will be wrong every single time.

Disclaimer: As it should be obvious by now, I am a Bulgarian.

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#57

There is a small town very near to where I grew up where everybody speaks Portuguese. The mayor and his councilmen speak Portuguese in their chambers. There are Festas and bullfights, of which I have attended many, and even played Baritone in an Azorian-tradition marching band. The local grocery stores have food with labels in Portuguese (occasionally Spanish as a second language). The most popular sports team in the…

I live in Romania, and just 40 miles away from me there's an entire different country, Bulgaria, with its rivers , whole mountain ranges, TV channels, folk tales and a different alphabet than ours. We have been each other neighbors for around 1,000 years, give or take, and yet I can only understand at most 5 words of the Bulgarian language and when it comes to "shared culture" I can only relate to some Bulgarian animation that I used to watch as a 5-year old a long time ago.

Now, on the entrepreneurial side of the story, I work for a Romanian startup who seriously considered expanding in the regional market (Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria). Now, Polish and Bulgarian are both Slavic languages but use different alphabets, so we would have had to hire different local people in both countries (with all the different laws, accounting and the likes), while with Hungarian (a Finno-Ugric language) we could have hired someone from my city, Bucharest, thx to the local Hungarian minority. We finally stopped the non-sense and decided to focus on a single huge market, the United States.

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#58

There is a small town very near to where I grew up where everybody speaks Portuguese. The mayor and his councilmen speak Portuguese in their chambers. There are Festas and bullfights, of which I have attended many, and even played Baritone in an Azorian-tradition marching band. The local grocery stores have food with labels in Portuguese (occasionally Spanish as a second language). The most popular sports team in the…

I addressed all that in my post. I never claimed that Americans were one homogenous group (and by the way, I've lived in California, too). I claimed that US, despite being a melting pot, is an actual nation (which is not the case with the EU) and that there are a least some common denominators - one of them being the language which is spoken natively by more than 80% of the population.

If you want Americans to stop making ridiculous generalizations about Europe, the way to do it is by similarly pledging to avoid the sort of ridiculous generalizations about America made by some Europeans - not by arguing about relative levels of heterogeneity.

Personally, I suspect certain differences between American regional subcultures - for instance, attitudes about the proper role of government in society - are broader than those you'll find between European countries.

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#59

This post feels awfully pedantic. While it may not be clear to non-Americans, when Americans talk about "Europe", they're generally talking about Western Europe, not Eastern, and are excluding the UK too. They almost certainly aren't including Russia. (Just like when Americans talk about Asia, they aren't usually thinking of India.) Of course, that's geographically inaccurate -- but it's what we usually mean. The Eur…

> When Americans talk about "Europe", they're generally talking about Western Europe, not Eastern, and are excluding the UK too. This doesn't hold true for any of the Americans I've met (and I've met a lot). Also, one of the countries Martin Varsavsky mentions in his examples is actually the UK. If it were true that the American definition of Europe doesn't include Eastern Europe, what part of the world do the many A…

[deleted]

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#60

This post feels awfully pedantic. While it may not be clear to non-Americans, when Americans talk about "Europe", they're generally talking about Western Europe, not Eastern, and are excluding the UK too. They almost certainly aren't including Russia. (Just like when Americans talk about Asia, they aren't usually thinking of India.) Of course, that's geographically inaccurate -- but it's what we usually mean. The Eur…

> ambivalent feelings toward entrepreneurs

I haven't found this to be the case in the Nordic countries, at least. You can't walk around a corner without tripping over a startup incubator, and there's a lot of interest, among both techies and the public (and the government), about where the "next Nokia", "next Spotify", "next Rovio", etc. are going to come from. Germans also lionize their famed "Mittelstand", which is not made up of Valley-style startups, but is still definitely entrepreneurial.

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