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The Feminist Was a Spy

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Re: The Feminist Was a Spy

#51
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern feminism is generally anti-colonialist and intersectional, which goes against that specific notion

Again, agreed. I just don't think it's particularly shocking that the US government would try to co-opt some of its rhetoric as a justification for military adventurism. They already do w/r/t the Middle East.

Ok, I see, I think I misread your initial comments. My bad

Re: The Feminist Was a Spy

#52
post #22
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is this the CIA that overthrew the democratically elected prime minister of Iran Mosaddegh Was not democratically elected, he was appointed by the Shah after the recommendation by the Majlis which itself was largely appointed. Later Mosaddegh rigged a real election and tried to give himself emergency power to dictate law. The Shah and his generals with the help of the US and Britain removed Mosaddegh. Yes the Briti…

Majlis means parliament, and with the monarch Shah in control, that makes it a constitutional monarchy. To place a putschist general on par with that is disingenuous; it is a democratic retreat.

It wasn’t a constitutional monarchy at the time, there were reformers pushing in that direction but the constitution put very few limits on the Shah. The Majlis wasn’t popularly elected then either.

Re: The Feminist Was a Spy

#53
post #46
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern feminism is generally anti-colonialist and intersectional, which goes against that specific notion

Modern intersectionality isn’t the cultural relativism of 20th century liberalism. Intersectionality has a built in escape hatch for any aspect of foreign culture that conflicts with the foundational premises of post-religious children of mainline american protestants. Any such practice gets lifted to a “human right,” thus taking it out of the realm of cultural differences and allowing it to be imposed on foreign soc…

That’s a pretty based take. Where do I subscribe to your newsletter?

Re: The Feminist Was a Spy

#54
post #50
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern intersectionality isn’t the cultural relativism of 20th century liberalism. Intersectionality has a built in escape hatch for any aspect of foreign culture that conflicts with the foundational premises of post-religious children of mainline american protestants. Any such practice gets lifted to a “human right,” thus taking it out of the realm of cultural differences and allowing it to be imposed on foreign soc…

What are you talking about? In concrete terms, what do you mean?

Concrete example: I'm Bangladeshi, and our society has strict gender roles. When you visit a Bangladeshi household, the women will spend all the time in the kitchen cooking elaborate meals, while the men are socializing. This is rooted deeply in tradition, religion, etc., and even extends to Bangladeshis who live in western countries. It's how Bangladeshis show hospitality, caring for family, etc.

How do you approach this from a feminist perspective?

1) If you're a western cultural chauvinist, like my mom and me, you'd say that Bangladeshi culture is backwards and the goal should be to be more like say Scandinavians where society doesn't impose this burden to cook elaborate meals on women.

2) If you're a cultural relativist, like most 20th century liberals, you'd say gender roles are arbitrary social constructs, and it's not our place to impose what we perceive as more advanced views of gender roles on other cultures.

3) If you're an anti-colonial feminist, you've got a tension. Unlike a cultural relativist, you cannot accept the Bangladeshi practice. But unlike a cultural chauvinist, you can't say that your own society's view of gender roles is superior. So you have to reframe gender roles as being a matter of women's rights, and therefore outside of culture. You put it in the same bucket as other social practices that we're willing to condemn as being outside the realm of legitimate cultural practices.

Note that the first and second groups accept the premise that gender role are cultural. The third must construct a second category of social practices outside the boundaries of culture in which to place practices that they condemn. But this distinction between what's "culture" and what's “not culture" is arbitrary. The collective imposing social rules on individuals to allocate work, achieve desirable ends, etc., is what culture is. What the anti-colonial feminist has done is just whittled down the box labeled "culture" to include only the aspects of society--food, clothing, etc.--that they don't have strong feelings about either way. It's the "Disney's It's a Small World" version of culture, where everyone is just a Western European wearing different different clothes and eating different food.[1]

This is particularly relevant in the context of this discussion about Steinem and the CIA. The CIA people of the 1950s were in bucket (1)--they thought that Anglo-American culture was superior in its substantive aspects over other cultures. All of those peoples' kids became post-Christian liberals, but their fundamental view of the world isn't actually all that different. (3) is just (1) with more steps and more hiding the ball about the very significant cultural differences that actually exist in society.

[1] More sophisticated intersectionalists will frame this in terms of "choice," but that steals the base. The notion that society can't prescribe social roles to people without their affirmative consent is itself an outgrowth of western individualism. From India to China to Africa to the Middle East, prior to western influence, everyone agreed that society can impose roles and obligations and burdens on individuals based on who they are.

Re: The Feminist Was a Spy

#55
post #38
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It interesting because the people at the CIA probably could be fairly described as "liberal, non-violent, and honorable". That sort of thing is heavily into banality of evil territory - lovely people, just a bit thoughtless about the effects they were having on huge tracts of the world. With those types the best you can hope for is at least they act rationally and effectively. It gets really sad when they do tremendo…

It’s the residual Puritanism. Foreign-facing federal agencies like the CIA were the last bastion of American WASPs. I grew up around these people because my dad worked for a contractor for USAID, which was at times a front for the State Department, and was similarly WASPy culturally. They’re lovely people. Soft-spoken, orderly and rule-following, public service-oriented, intellectually curious. But they also have thi…

>detachment from baser emotions that enable them to pursue abstract ideas to their logical conclusions

Yes, WASP are attracted to universal moral principles. A major WASP institution (namely, a religious denomination) is literally named "Universalism".

Re: The Feminist Was a Spy

#56
post #46
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern feminism is generally anti-colonialist and intersectional, which goes against that specific notion

Modern intersectionality isn’t the cultural relativism of 20th century liberalism. Intersectionality has a built in escape hatch for any aspect of foreign culture that conflicts with the foundational premises of post-religious children of mainline american protestants. Any such practice gets lifted to a “human right,” thus taking it out of the realm of cultural differences and allowing it to be imposed on foreign soc…

> allowing it to be imposed on foreign societies without accusations of cultural imperialism.

I don't actually know if this is an accurate representation of 21st century feminist thought. If anything, I think they just take an inevitableist view and say every country must be allowed to have its feminist revolution in its own time.

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