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Snow Fall: The Avalanche at Tunnel Creek

nytimes.com

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Re: Snow Fall: The Avalanche at Tunnel Creek

#51

Post by blantonl »

grecy wrote: post #43

I'm an avoid back country snowboarder (split boarder) in the Canadian Rockies, and now further north into Coastal Alaska and I've spent many seasons as ski patrol, and taken numerous Avalanche training courses. After my first 4 day course, the message was very clear: "You are now the least knowledgeable people that should be in the back country". I kept thinking "I know just enough to know I know nothing". Reading th…

I cannot agree enough with this. I spend quite a bit of time every year in Whitefish Montana, and avalanche awareness is a big deal there in the winter time.

Back country skiing is akin to skydiving. Significant experience and training is required. From avalanche awareness training, to avalanche rescue training, to tools and devices that a back country team needs to have to safely participate in the back country snow experience.

You've got to be very experienced and educated before you venture out of bounds...

Re: Snow Fall: The Avalanche at Tunnel Creek

#53

Post by Someone »

grecy wrote: post #43

I'm an avoid back country snowboarder (split boarder) in the Canadian Rockies, and now further north into Coastal Alaska and I've spent many seasons as ski patrol, and taken numerous Avalanche training courses. After my first 4 day course, the message was very clear: "You are now the least knowledgeable people that should be in the back country". I kept thinking "I know just enough to know I know nothing". Reading th…

Severe lack of training and practice caused deaths.

That is not what I got from reading that. Certainly, anything they did after the avalanche hit wouldn't have made a difference. At least that is the impression I got from the description of the injuries.

and a lot of them knew better.

And I think you somewhat agree. Or do you think they knew, but weren't trained well enough?

Thinking about how this could happen, I thought of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster#Proba..., in particular the part where it says

The flight engineer's apparent hesitation to challenge Veldhuyzen van Zanten further, possibly because Captain Veldhuyzen van Zanten was not only senior in rank, but also one of the most able and experienced pilots working for the airline

In this case, each of them seems to have felt safe because there were so many other experts around.

Also, no amount of training can fully prepare you for disaster. Even if you have been taught exactly what to do, you may not be able to do it in a situation of severe stress. That might explain the 911 calls. It could just be another 'program', that of 'call 911 for help' took over.

Re: Snow Fall: The Avalanche at Tunnel Creek

#54

Post by tsunamifury »

arscan wrote: post #10

I think this works because the little videos in the breaks actually do a great job of complementing the content of the article (and happen to be pretty). There was a link yesterday on HN that used a similar technique, but the breaks were static images that didn't really add anything to the content of the article [1]. Sure, they're pretty and novel, but I thought the breaks did more harm then good for somebody actuall…

I dont think this works at all. Its heavy, difficult to read, and full of distractions. The fade in animations are unnecessary and the parallax scrolling adds nothing to the story. The multimedia functions more as footnotes or interruptions that route you outside of the narrative.

Its mobile-unfriendly and breaks the UI of NYT.com.

Re: Snow Fall: The Avalanche at Tunnel Creek

#56

Post by alecperkins »

sillysaurus wrote: post #33

In case it's helpful, here's a screenshot of what this article looks like on an iPhone (Chrome): http://i.imgur.com/B1ZkO.png It won't let me zoom out or zoom in. The only way to read the article is by dragging back and forth repeatedly. Technical/debugging note: everything was fine before the top header image fully loaded. I could zoom out and zoom in before that image showed up, so therefore that header image is so…

Odd. It looks perfectly fine to me, in both mobile Safari and mobile Chrome. The text is completely visible, with a little padding on either side, and videos all slide nicely into the text column.

Re: Snow Fall: The Avalanche at Tunnel Creek

#57

Post by gamble »

grecy wrote: post #43

I'm an avoid back country snowboarder (split boarder) in the Canadian Rockies, and now further north into Coastal Alaska and I've spent many seasons as ski patrol, and taken numerous Avalanche training courses. After my first 4 day course, the message was very clear: "You are now the least knowledgeable people that should be in the back country". I kept thinking "I know just enough to know I know nothing". Reading th…

Wasn't their another account of the avalanche, written by one of the survivors? IIRC, he made it sound like one of those instances where - individually - they all had misgivings about the conditions, but because no one was comfortable voicing their concerns, they all perceived the group as a whole to be in favor and didn't feel comfortable being the odd man out to question the group.

Re: Snow Fall: The Avalanche at Tunnel Creek

#58

Post by grecy »

Someone wrote: post #53
grecy wrote: post #43

I'm an avoid back country snowboarder (split boarder) in the Canadian Rockies, and now further north into Coastal Alaska and I've spent many seasons as ski patrol, and taken numerous Avalanche training courses. After my first 4 day course, the message was very clear: "You are now the least knowledgeable people that should be in the back country". I kept thinking "I know just enough to know I know nothing". Reading th…

Severe lack of training and practice caused deaths. That is not what I got from reading that. Certainly, anything they did after the avalanche hit wouldn't have made a difference. At least that is the impression I got from the description of the injuries. and a lot of them knew better. And I think you somewhat agree. Or do you think they knew, but weren't trained well enough? Thinking about how this could happen, I t…

> Certainly, anything they did after the avalanche hit wouldn't have made a difference

That statement shows you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and clearly have no place commenting here.

The reality is that how you react after an avalanche will absolutely impact the lives of those buried.

> Or do you think they knew

They seemed to know, but went against their gut.

> Also, no amount of training can fully prepare you for disaster.

Agree, that's why a big part of training is simulated avalanches where people are yelling at you, it's cold, and people are 'dying' every minute you choose to use your damn cell phone.

Re: Snow Fall: The Avalanche at Tunnel Creek

#59

Post by grecy »

ISL wrote: post #50
grecy wrote: post #43

I'm an avoid back country snowboarder (split boarder) in the Canadian Rockies, and now further north into Coastal Alaska and I've spent many seasons as ski patrol, and taken numerous Avalanche training courses. After my first 4 day course, the message was very clear: "You are now the least knowledgeable people that should be in the back country". I kept thinking "I know just enough to know I know nothing". Reading th…

The group was composed of well-trained and knowledgeable skiers. I'd disagree, in whole or in part, with points 3,4,5,6,8,9,10, but HN isn't the place to quarterback an accident. Each point above is well-founded, but may not apply in this situation. I think that the main reason that Mrs. Saugstad is doing so many interviews is to spread the word about avalanche and snow safety education. Snow is a counterintuitive me…

> Snow is a counterintuitive medium.

I think the bigger problem is ski resorts. They are so "safe" and controlled (we call them Disneyland) that anyone going skiing doesn't have to engage their brain.

It's then very easy to continue to behave in that manner when you are not at a resort.

Often in the back country we say out loud to each other "This is the real deal", "This is not a joke", "No ski patrol has been here" to constantly remind us to be alert to danger signs

Re: Snow Fall: The Avalanche at Tunnel Creek

#60

Post by scottcha »

gamble wrote: post #57
grecy wrote: post #43

I'm an avoid back country snowboarder (split boarder) in the Canadian Rockies, and now further north into Coastal Alaska and I've spent many seasons as ski patrol, and taken numerous Avalanche training courses. After my first 4 day course, the message was very clear: "You are now the least knowledgeable people that should be in the back country". I kept thinking "I know just enough to know I know nothing". Reading th…

Wasn't their another account of the avalanche, written by one of the survivors? IIRC, he made it sound like one of those instances where - individually - they all had misgivings about the conditions, but because no one was comfortable voicing their concerns, they all perceived the group as a whole to be in favor and didn't feel comfortable being the odd man out to question the group.

Probably the biggest issue in avalanche education is how to deal with this human element. I can only imagine its even worse when amongst pros and industry elites like in this group.
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