Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking • Hacker News Board

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#51

Post by gonzo » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:49 PM UTC

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #36

rictic wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting weapons in the hands of teachers and other school officials makes intuitive sense, however the case where it will need to be used is very rare, yet to be useful the weapons will need to be readily available at all times. As a result, it's plausible that the total magnitude of injury would be higher due to accident, misuse, etc.

Exactly. I want teachers to focus on teaching our kids (and some can't even do that... 'nother topic). I would rather have the protection of our kids left to people who are trained and ready for that. One thing is securing entry to the school. It sounds like the CT school had measures in place to keep out the random creep that might wander in but that didn't stop a kid from blasting his way in. Would bullet-proof gla…

perhaps we could employ retired police officers as "school guards".

They have the training. Many of them are still in their 40s and 50s.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#52

Post by jack-r-abbit » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:49 PM UTC

wonderzombie wrote: post #43

pc86 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something gun control advocates seem to forget is that gun ownership is a Constitutional right for Americans. You cannot compare it to driving a car, or buying a television, or buying something from Amazon. If you're going to compare to something else for the purposes of limiting and regulating it, you need to compare to voting, assembling, practicing your faith or some other Constitutional right. When you are requir…

Many items in the Bill of Rights are far more nuanced than this absolutist interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. For one thing, there are multiple restrictions on freedom of speech. Maybe you think those oughtn't exist, but we're talking about the status quo, not ideal worlds. This is not to mention the idea that there are multiple ways to adjudicate whether this means "all guns" or "some guns," since there's quite a…

True. It is kind of interesting how often the "well-regulated" part is overlooked. To regulate something is to control it. So... there is that.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#53

Post by jwhitlark » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:50 PM UTC

ranjeetbhatia wrote: post #35

Well then what is the magic number when this becomes significant enough to do something about it? Lets say even 1/100 of people who die from tobacco i.e 5k per year or 13 per day in mass shooting. Who wants to wait till then. My point is that dying from tobacco use and mass shootings are not the same. So lets not even compare them. Mass shootings is more of a symptom of something really wrong with the society. It is…

Universal healthcare is debated because it has to be paid for by other parties. No one is suggesting the govt. should be buying people guns. One is a positive right and the other a negative right, as they used to say.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#54

Post by hga » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:51 PM UTC

rictic wrote: post #22

Todd wrote: post #16

I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions. I really wish we would have a meaningful debate over the best tools and strategies for protecting people in large groups in public places. Because of the delay of so-called first responders, it is really left to the people who are there to ta…

Putting weapons in the hands of teachers and other school officials makes intuitive sense, however the case where it will need to be used is very rare, yet to be useful the weapons will need to be readily available at all times. As a result, it's plausible that the total magnitude of injury would be higher due to accident, misuse, etc.

It is plausible, but on the other hand, how rare are fires in schools? We extensively prepare for those (and as it goes, something like 19 out of the top 20 mass murders in the US were arsons).

"Readily available" can be addressed by concealed handguns that aren't too easy to get to; you might have to give an attacker a "first bite of the apple" in favor of making them too accessible. On the other hand, a few M4s in a quick to open safe in the principle's office ought to be doable, as long as the staffers there have the right attitudes, to "march towards the sound of canons".

And it's attitude above all that needs to be addressed, we don't take this threat seriously, perhaps in part because it's quite new as these things go (we'll ignore the far more deadly 1927 Bath school massacre done with explosives).

This school had a crust defense; once the perimeter was compromised by the attacker shooting out a window (according to the latest never very reliable reports) there was nothing left but for the teachers to interpose their bodies between the shooter and their charges. Which was no obstacle to him (one does wonder what it takes for someone who doesn't seem to have suffered from schizophrenia or mania to shoot a bunch of 5-6 year old children 3-11 times each ... I admit the existence of evil, won't claim to ever really understand it).

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#55

Post by purephase » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:53 PM UTC

jbellis wrote: post #27

engtech wrote: post #14

Infographic on gun ownership around the world that was published by a Canadian newspaper after a public shooting at a mall. http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/28/guns-ownership-aroun... note that the black circle is not scaled by the population of the country so it isn't visually as useful as it could be. Interesting take aways: * 88.9 guns per 100 U.S. citizens * 45.7 guns per 100 swedish citizens (next highest co…

True, but a common argument from gun owners is that if you're feeling homicidal, you'll find a way to commit murder with or without a gun. Looking at all homicides vs gun ownership seems to bear that out. In fact, there appears to be a negative correlation with gun ownership: http://diegobasch.com/homicides-vs-gun-ownership (Can we start abbreviating Correlation Is Not Causation as CINC now? In any case, if you're go…

Outside of higher-yield weapons like bombs, guns are the fastest, lightest and easiest-to-use methods for murdering the most number of people in the shortest amount of time.

It seems insane to me (as a Canadian citizen) that the pro-gun folks continue to peddle that safety comes from increasing the number of "responsible" carriers. Here are the issues that I see with this:

1. The assumption that all gun users are trained and responsible. It seems obvious to compare this to other licensees such as drivers and you'll immediately see that it is not a valid argument. There are terrible drivers on the roads with valid licenses, who have presumably been trained with a lot of experience. The barrier to entry is even higher in that the cost of a vehicle is higher than a weapon.

2. How do you differentiate the good vs. bad in a situation such as Aurora? If you see a number of random strangers running around with guns in hand, few of whom would have any sort of melee training outside of video games, who do you shoot at? Where does the liability lie if one innocent murders another innocent by mistake?

3. The number of guns will increase (as they are now). With more lying around either forgotten or marginally broken, it increases the availability for non-licensed usage as I doubt responsible users dispose of their weapons appropriately (see item 1).

I say all this fully recognizing the gun's position as a tool, strongly advocating mental health reform and even supporting the OP's position of rational rather than emotional response to Newtown.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#56

Post by ttrt » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:54 PM UTC

nollidge wrote: post #29

Todd wrote: post #16

I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions. I really wish we would have a meaningful debate over the best tools and strategies for protecting people in large groups in public places. Because of the delay of so-called first responders, it is really left to the people who are there to ta…

Hey quick question: how many people died in those knife attacks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010–2...

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#57

Post by pc86 » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:55 PM UTC

nollidge wrote: post #45

pc86 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something gun control advocates seem to forget is that gun ownership is a Constitutional right for Americans. You cannot compare it to driving a car, or buying a television, or buying something from Amazon. If you're going to compare to something else for the purposes of limiting and regulating it, you need to compare to voting, assembling, practicing your faith or some other Constitutional right. When you are requir…

I assure you gun control advocates have not forgotten about the second amendment since the opposition will not shut up about it. Also, all the rights listed in the first ten amendments are limited to the point at which you're infringing on someone else's rights. The threat of death or injury, such as it is, would seem to be a pretty clear reason to limit that right.

And I welcome you to explain to me how my owning a particular type of firearms constitutes "threat of death or injury." Brandishing is already a crime, so I fail to see what point you're trying to make.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#58

Post by rickmb » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:56 PM UTC

The scale of the problem isn't in itself an argument for doing or not doing something about. The emotional impact is most definitely an important factor, and not something that can simply be argued away with numbers.

Most people don't live in fear of cancer or lightning strikes, unless they find themselves in the middle of an asbestos filled building or right underneath a lightning storm.

The knowledge however that so many people around carry deadly firearms, and maybe more importantly, apparently feel they have a pressing reason to own firearms, is a daily reality for many. This fear is real, and it is not irrational.

This is not about the odds. It's about not having to live in fear. Even though the odds are wildly in their favor, most people very rationally prefer not to go swimming with sharks.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#59

Post by diego » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:56 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #44

Not once does the author dare to compare homicide rates to other developed countries. You're almost twice as likely to be killed by a gun because you live in the United States vs. the next developed country (Finland). You're 2.6 times as likely to be killed than the next country, Canada. Something is very wrong here. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...

Author here, see my previous post plotting homicides vs gun ownership across countries: http://diegobasch.com/homicides-vs-gun-ownership

Yes, the average American (not necessarily you, it varies a lot depending on where you live) is more likely to be killed by a gun than the average person in Finland. That is completely irrelevant to my post. It's not a competition among countries, it's about making the US better. "Daring" has nothing to do with it.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#60

Post by zzzeek » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:57 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #28

ollysb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I visited Phoenix a couple of weeks ago and was shown a gun collection owned by a previous member of the army. I was shown a pistol collection, then rifles, then semi-automatics. Really a quite staggering amount of hardware. When I asked what license was required to own this type of equipment he replied none. Without making a judgement on whether or not civilians should be allowed to own this type of equipment in the…

Something gun control advocates seem to forget is that gun ownership is a Constitutional right for Americans. You cannot compare it to driving a car, or buying a television, or buying something from Amazon. If you're going to compare to something else for the purposes of limiting and regulating it, you need to compare to voting, assembling, practicing your faith or some other Constitutional right. When you are requir…

The most recent supreme court decision DC v Heller upheld the fact that second amendment rights are not unlimited.

> Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller#...

this is considerably more limited than the restrictions on attending churches. w.r.t voting, you do need to register ahead of time and in some states you may even have to show a photo ID, though this is under debate.