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The Benchmarkpocalypse

danluu.com

51–60 of 74 posts

Re: The Benchmarkpocalypse

#51
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ungrounded LLM outputs are a bit like your dreams. Without anything to test hypotheses against, stuff can pop in and out of existence and physics is just advice. Ground your LLM. Tests, documentation, give it many ways to run the thing its reasoning about. It needs to be able to test its hypotheses on its own. Take yourself out of that loop so you only find out once it's sure.

But this is exactly what the AI labs should be doing ...

And they are, at least for Claude I know it writes random mocks and tests in its virtual env even in the web version, cause it sometimes annoyingly includes them in the final result. It's the only reason it produces anything that runs.

Re: The Benchmarkpocalypse

#52
Can anyone explain (or link to an article which explains) why telling Claude things like not to cheat or that there is a holdout set makes the output better? People say that an LLM is just a statistical next token predictor. I've read the article by Stephen Wolfram [0] on this, which makes sense to me, but then I can't see how 'more complex' behavior like cheating or not cheating can arise.

[0] : https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2023/02/what-is-chatgpt-...

Re: The Benchmarkpocalypse

#53

Can anyone explain (or link to an article which explains) why telling Claude things like not to cheat or that there is a holdout set makes the output better? People say that an LLM is just a statistical next token predictor. I've read the article by Stephen Wolfram [0] on this, which makes sense to me, but then I can't see how 'more complex' behavior like cheating or not cheating can arise. [0] : https://writings.ste…

[deleted]

Re: The Benchmarkpocalypse

#54

Can anyone explain (or link to an article which explains) why telling Claude things like not to cheat or that there is a holdout set makes the output better? People say that an LLM is just a statistical next token predictor. I've read the article by Stephen Wolfram [0] on this, which makes sense to me, but then I can't see how 'more complex' behavior like cheating or not cheating can arise. [0] : https://writings.ste…

AI is trained off a massive corpus of internet exchanges. If you tell people youre going to thoroughly inspect their work or are able to check if theyre right, only people with high confidence will respond. I imagine exchanges where the OP is more involved in fact checking have a higher proportion of thoughtful and honest answers.

Re: The Benchmarkpocalypse

#55
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a "don't make me tap the sign" moment. LLMs are next token prediction models. If there are factual errors, confused ideas, etc. in the preceding tokens, that will affect the generation of subsequent tokens, and the error accumulates. Case in point, I hit an error in a SQL query today because it turned out I was trying to do something that wasn't supported by the query engine. I pasted the error message and a…

> Except it turned out I pointed it to the wrong file, and there wasn't a mistake in that file. That’s a fairly common error, on my part. I may have a wrong file, selected in the Xcode Navigator, and the LLM accepts that, as the problematic file. In other cases, I’m just plain wrong, in my diagnosis. Maybe the error manifests in that file, but is caused, in another one. I have taken to giving the LLM as many involved…

> as the LLM progressed through my project, learning more and more about it… This means that it needs to start over, learning the project. I am in the process of exporting from the previous account, but I’m not sure how well this will transfer the accumulated knowledge

LLMs don’t learn though. Are you talking about some sort of architecture.md file collection being built? This files should be just easy to copy?

Re: The Benchmarkpocalypse

#56

Can anyone explain (or link to an article which explains) why telling Claude things like not to cheat or that there is a holdout set makes the output better? People say that an LLM is just a statistical next token predictor. I've read the article by Stephen Wolfram [0] on this, which makes sense to me, but then I can't see how 'more complex' behavior like cheating or not cheating can arise. [0] : https://writings.ste…

That's a 2023 article! In 2023, reinforcement learning from verifiable rewards (RLVR) didn't exist.

TL;DR these machines seek reward from an inferred invisible "grader," and telling them not to cheat and that there's an unseen holdout set is a hint at how they're being graded.

--

Modern LLMs are built on top of next-token-prediction engines, but they don't remotely stop there. The next token prediction bit is just a learned prior or starting point. From there, we give them a bunch of stages of reinforcement learning: encouraging teaching them to learn good ways of searching the space of reasonable language-like strings to solve tasks.

These RL stages drastically change the capabilities & tendencies of the models, sometimes in weird and unexpected ways. The go from token predictors to reward seekers, or really some weird mishmash. The reward that they're seeking is some sorta opaque combination of the huge number of different things we've rewarded them for.

And, reinforcement learning is notoriously hard to get right. The thing you think you're rewarding is rarely what you're actually rewarding. Goodhart's Law is a hydra with a thousand heads. You might think you're rewarding politeness and kindness when you're actually rewarding obsequious sycophancy. You might think you're rewarding graphics engineering when you're actually rewarding escaping the training sandbox and modifying the evaluation code.

So a modern training pipeline looks something like this, each stage starting with the model weights from the end of the last:

0. Pre-pre-training (dunno how widely this is used at big labs): next token prediction on extremely abstract weird shit like the evolution of the states of neural cellular automata. This creates a highly general pattern-continuation machine with no internal representations of anything causally downstream of anything in the real world.

1. Pre-training: next-token prediction on all the non-shitty text you can get your hands on. This makes a rather general next-token-predictor.

2. Mid-training: next-token prediction on high quality, highly curated text, often very technical in nature. Lots of textbooks, especially STEM. Possibly lots of machine-generated summaries of factual knowledge? You now have a next-token-predictor that's highly biased towards acting like a textbook instead of a 4chan troll.

3. Supervised Fine-tuning: next-token prediction on highly curated question-answer pairs that embody desired behaviors, traditionally Helpful Harmless Honest. We only train on the answer portion. This creates a next-token predictor that's highly bias towards acting like HAL 9000.

4. Reinforcement Learning from Human Feedback: We leave token prediction behind and enter RL world! You've got a curated set of a bunch of prompts. For each one, the model generates several possible answers. A real live human grades or ranks each. We reward the model for high-scoring answers and punish it for low-scoring answers. This creates a reward-seeker that wants to please the human grader.

5. Reinforcement Learning from AI Feedback: Human feedback is expensive, so train another LLM to imitate the human graders from stage 4. Then do stuff like stage 4, but with robot graders instead of human graders. This creates a reward-seeker that wants to please the robot-wearing-a-flesh-mask grader.

6. Reinforcement Learning from Verifiable Rewards: We want the bot to tackle complex problems. There's a broad class of problems that are hard to solve but easy to verify when you do get the solution: basically anything that can be reduced to writing a computer program that passes a test. (The test can be as simple or complex as you want, like "all the tests in SQLite" plus a linter plus grading by other LLMs for style and taking shortcuts like rewriting the test suite or searching GitHub and HuggingFace for the right answer plus...) This creates a reward-seeker that wants to first figure out how it's being graded, and then maximize that grade by any means necessary.

--

The crux is, designing a huge variety of un-cheatable RLVR environments is gob-smackingly hard. The robot will find new ways to cheat faster than you can stamp them out. By the time you realize that in one RLVR rollout it received a reward after it took over 0.01% of your GPU infrastructure to mine crypto to pay freelancers on Fiverrr to solve the problem for it rather than just write the damn code itself, the model may have already been deployed in the wild for a month.

Re: The Benchmarkpocalypse

#57
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except it turned out I pointed it to the wrong file, and there wasn't a mistake in that file. That’s a fairly common error, on my part. I may have a wrong file, selected in the Xcode Navigator, and the LLM accepts that, as the problematic file. In other cases, I’m just plain wrong, in my diagnosis. Maybe the error manifests in that file, but is caused, in another one. I have taken to giving the LLM as many involved…

> as the LLM progressed through my project, learning more and more about it… This means that it needs to start over, learning the project. I am in the process of exporting from the previous account, but I’m not sure how well this will transfer the accumulated knowledge LLMs don’t learn though. Are you talking about some sort of architecture.md file collection being built? This files should be just easy to copy?

Oh, no. The LLM definitely learns my project. It learns my coding and documentation style, and remembers files. Sometimes, that's a pain, as it remembers old versions of files, and disregards newer ones.

That's actually a real advantage. Right now, I am getting it to compile a tutorial for the app. Since it's starting from scratch, I can't rely on it remembering much, so I have to "start from the beginning," and give it a lot of information that the other account already had.

Re: The Benchmarkpocalypse

#58
this reminds me of the whole situation with how llms cannot really solve logic problems, they only really memorized the answer, for example the riddle:

a mother and her son got in a car accident, the mother died, and the son was driven to the hospital. the doctor (who is the boy's father) says he cannot opperated because he is related to the boy. what is the relation between the boy and the doctor.

llms like to assume the doctor is the mother because of the fact that is the version that shows up in their training data.

Re: The Benchmarkpocalypse

#59
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as the LLM progressed through my project, learning more and more about it… This means that it needs to start over, learning the project. I am in the process of exporting from the previous account, but I’m not sure how well this will transfer the accumulated knowledge LLMs don’t learn though. Are you talking about some sort of architecture.md file collection being built? This files should be just easy to copy?

Oh, no. The LLM definitely learns my project. It learns my coding and documentation style, and remembers files. Sometimes, that's a pain, as it remembers old versions of files, and disregards newer ones. That's actually a real advantage. Right now, I am getting it to compile a tutorial for the app. Since it's starting from scratch, I can't rely on it remembering much, so I have to "start from the beginning," and give…

What tool are you using?

I know Claude will maintain its own memory files in ~/.claude, unbidden.

The actual LLM under the hood is static, though - it was trained once and will not self-modify.

Re: The Benchmarkpocalypse

#60
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, no. The LLM definitely learns my project. It learns my coding and documentation style, and remembers files. Sometimes, that's a pain, as it remembers old versions of files, and disregards newer ones. That's actually a real advantage. Right now, I am getting it to compile a tutorial for the app. Since it's starting from scratch, I can't rely on it remembering much, so I have to "start from the beginning," and give…

What tool are you using? I know Claude will maintain its own memory files in ~/.claude, unbidden. The actual LLM under the hood is static, though - it was trained once and will not self-modify.

ChatGPT, as a chat interface. I just switched from Plus to Pro. There may be a file, but I haven't seen it, and I know that the export process is non-trivial (it said it would "take several days").
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