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AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

blog.florianherrengt.com

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Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#51

Post by chaps »

davidw wrote: post #34
declan_roberts wrote: post #12

Between AI and competing against the world with H-1B, it's really never been harder to get an entry or mid-level software engineering job. Which means our pipeline to senior engineer is completely broken.

People have been fretting about 'foreigners' taking their jobs for decades and it never really happened. This is all about LLM's. I mean, think about it; just a few short years ago there was a very strong market for software engineers, despite outsourcing and immigration being very much part of the landscape.

Orrrrrr... it could be a complex combination of outsourcing, an over-reliance on degrees, LLMs, a lack of "apprenticeship" mentoring, etc etc etc.

I was very fortunate to get a job in a NOC a little bit after high school where I learned things one'd expect to learn in an entry level job. The team I worked on was all about mentorship, learning, and building people to the next level.

Haven't seen that attitude elsewhere in my entire career except in the non-profit world where I reside these days. It blows me away that people are surprised that these industries have failed to build entry level positions.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#52

Post by scronkfinkle »

I think of it more as "the automation of the stackoverflow engineer". In enterprise software, there has always just been a non-negotiable large volume of code that was required to be written. This has traditionally been offloaded by having seniors do the hard thinking then distill it into a jira ticket which could be handed off to an engineer that'd actually write the code and punch every hiccup into google along the way. This hand off is no longer necessary as that same senior can just kick off an agent and have it handle the implementation for them.

I've heard some refer to this as a "nature is healing" scenario for the industry where if you only signed up for a high paycheck and didn't care to think critically about any of the work you're doing then this will be painful because that previously manual process has been automated. The floor of what's necessary to be considered valuable has been raised.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#53

Post by iLoveOncall »

mikert89 wrote: post #44
iLoveOncall wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 100K H1-Bs a year and 4 million grads a year in the US. Anyone who thinks H1-Bs are actually contributing to their inability to find a job is a moron.

have you been inside a big tech company? there arent many american fresh grads working there, its mostly foreign

[flagged]

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#54

Post by mikert89 »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #53
mikert89 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

have you been inside a big tech company? there arent many american fresh grads working there, its mostly foreign

[flagged]

amazon is crammed full of indians, its one of the worst offenders. i spent 5 years at the company

also nothing impressive about a senior SDE there, maybe 10 years ago it was impressive, best talent has either moved on or is L7+

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#55

Post by nsxwolf »

davidw wrote: post #34
declan_roberts wrote: post #12

Between AI and competing against the world with H-1B, it's really never been harder to get an entry or mid-level software engineering job. Which means our pipeline to senior engineer is completely broken.

People have been fretting about 'foreigners' taking their jobs for decades and it never really happened. This is all about LLM's. I mean, think about it; just a few short years ago there was a very strong market for software engineers, despite outsourcing and immigration being very much part of the landscape.

My job was just taken by Cognizant, which is technically American, so I guess you're technically right!

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#56

Post by dgellow »

api wrote: post #26
mikert89 wrote: post #13

AI gives more leverage to exceptional people, its an amplifier not an extender

That is true of all tools. AI is a tool. A tool provides leverage. It does not make a bad craftsperson good.

I hate that framing because it glosses over what makes AI distinct from other technology. Pretty much anything can be used as a tool, that’s not an interesting aspect of AI. However standard tools do not take decisions on behalf of the user, they do not apply judgement. They come with assumptions and constraints that make some decisions more likely to be made. But the whole thing about LLMs is that they apply judgement and take decisions. When you use an LLM you delegate both aspects to it with very little overview or control.

I don’t think it’s “just a tool”, it’s something that directly compete with the role of humans in a system, by design

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#57

Post by insane_dreamer »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #42
declan_roberts wrote: post #12

Between AI and competing against the world with H-1B, it's really never been harder to get an entry or mid-level software engineering job. Which means our pipeline to senior engineer is completely broken.

There are 100K H1-Bs a year and 4 million grads a year in the US. Anyone who thinks H1-Bs are actually contributing to their inability to find a job is a moron.

Spend some time processing tech job applications and you’ll realize you’re wrong

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#58

Post by davidw »

mikert89 wrote: post #38
davidw wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have been fretting about 'foreigners' taking their jobs for decades and it never really happened. This is all about LLM's. I mean, think about it; just a few short years ago there was a very strong market for software engineers, despite outsourcing and immigration being very much part of the landscape.

have you been inside any big tech company? lots of orgs are > 80% foreign.

That's not actually true; people have been complaining about this for decades, and it's never been the zero-sum game that they claim it is.

I mean, I wrote this 12 years ago in response to similar discussions on this same site, and in the intervening years, we had a great market for software engineers: https://journal.dedasys.com/2014/12/29/people-places-and-job...

What has changed is 1) the zero interest rate environment went away and 2) LLM's.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#60

Post by mikert89 »

davidw wrote: post #58
mikert89 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

have you been inside any big tech company? lots of orgs are > 80% foreign.

That's not actually true; people have been complaining about this for decades, and it's never been the zero-sum game that they claim it is. I mean, I wrote this 12 years ago in response to similar discussions on this same site, and in the intervening years, we had a great market for software engineers: https://journal.dedasys.com/2014/12/29/people-places-and-job... What has changed is 1) the zero interest rate enviro…

ive worked at multiple FAANG, almost always been the only american on a team of 10. theres some huge push by corporations to deny it to justify shipping in more foreign labor.
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