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University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

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Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#51

Post by Jtsummers »

GlibMonkeyDeath wrote: post #49

This has the knock-on effect that it becomes impossible to excel in your first semester. Both of my kids worked hard and were prepared for college, and they did very well their first years, as they were used to the pace and level of information. It's something they are proud of, and it gave them confidence in their future lives. By eliminating the chance to excel, we make life worse for students who should be standin…

> This has the knock-on effect that it becomes impossible to excel in your first semester.

No, it eliminates the grade and GPA award for excelling. You can still excel, unless you absolutely require external validation for your work. And even then, it's still college, professors notice top performers even if they aren't giving them an A+++++ and have to give them a Pass instead.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#52

Post by amanaplanacanal »

nodesocket wrote: post #28

This sort of coddling and weak policy is setting students up for a rude awaking when they get into the professional workforce.

Seeing the purpose of education to be preparing you to be part of "the professional workforce" is the problem.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#53

Post by uncivilized »

estearum wrote: post #21
joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

I wouldn't blame her but anyone who has to check out should just fail. This is about gunning for the elite/upper echelons of society. Doing that requires working like a dog not just for 2 years of high school and 4 years of college, but for likely several decades after. It's totally fine if not everyone can do it and that more people try than actually achieve it. It would be surprising if those weren't true, and engi…

Sad state that of affairs when comments like this appear and have affirmative replies. Shows how socially unaware and one-dimensional a Hacker News is.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#54

Post by hgoel »

tptacek wrote: post #17

Having put two kids through college now: this makes sense. First semester grades are a shitshow anyways, and aren't especially predictive. The first semester at an R1 is utterly unlike any ordinary high school experience and a lot of what you're measuring is just kids getting their sea legs. What's the point? If it's causing drama, just get rid of it.

I was initially thinking they were being too coddling, but you're right, my first semester grades weren't all that good either. I was working hard, but it takes a lot to adapt to the much higher expectations of a decent uni.

They aren't a meaningful signal for how capable a person is by the end of the program. But maybe the fix would be to not count them towards the GPA/permanent transcript, while still providing the achieved grade to the students so they have a measure of how they did.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#55

Post by techjamie »

bradfa wrote: post #44
joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

Are normal adults not "working" in a similar way to your kid for 15+ hours per weekday? Comparable adult parent things would be up at 6am, prep kids for school day, in the office by 8am, 8 hours of work plus a lunch, departing the office around 5pm, transporting kids to/from some activities, dinner, helping kids with homework, somehow fit in regular shopping needs (food, essentials, etc), maybe some volunteering or h…

That's also assuming you have children. I'm childfree and most days are all mine once I punch out unless I've got stuff to triage here and there.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#56

Post by iamnothere »

joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

We need to normalize a gap year, or at least a gap semester. Young adults need a break after the pressure of graduation and college admissions, and whether it’s work or travel, some perspective helps ground the college experience and make it a choice instead of an obligation.

In my experience, many freshmen treated their first year as a gap year anyways, especially if they took difficult senior classes. First year classes aren’t always as rigorous as good AP classes (depending on both the high school and the university), so you can skip or cram while partying.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#57

Post by jerlam »

mae3x wrote: post #39
joezydeco wrote: post #15

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect that they are going to throttle back once they're away from home with way more free time than is normal. From my kid's experience: she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice…

This schedule is no different than my schedule from 30 years ago and I don't consider it problematic at all. You frame it as 15+ hour days by including all aspects of their day as "work" but no normal adult includes their workout time and their social engagements as part of their work day. Time spent in sports is fun, not work. If it is work, then quit. Time spent in gym class and lunch is not work. Remove all that b…

Yes, if you go to a junior college or night school, you will discover what an actual busy schedule looks like and it's not sports clubs and volunteer activities taken for the sole purpose of inflating your college admissions letter.

Some of those students have 40 hour jobs, some night shift, that they can't skip or else they don't have a home or school anymore. Others have kids that can't be neglected.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#58

Post by estearum »

raddan wrote: post #42
estearum wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't blame her but anyone who has to check out should just fail. This is about gunning for the elite/upper echelons of society. Doing that requires working like a dog not just for 2 years of high school and 4 years of college, but for likely several decades after. It's totally fine if not everyone can do it and that more people try than actually achieve it. It would be surprising if those weren't true, and engi…

> This is about gunning for the elite/upper echelons of society. Is that what it’s about? Keep in that the University of Michigan is a public university, explicitly founded to “provide the inhabitants of this state with the means of acquiring a thorough knowledge of the various branches of literature, science, and the arts.” There’s nothing about being elite in there at all. This is an institution that serves the pub…

All universities are for the elites. I would love for that not to be the case, but the only reason admissions are this competitive is because there's competition for limited slots.

And yes, certainly a (traditional) university education should not be required for having good career opportunities.

IMO there's a need for a type of education that's vastly more scalable and still equips people with the beyond-secondary education they need to be productive in today's economy.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#59

Post by estearum »

joezydeco wrote: post #37
estearum wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't blame her but anyone who has to check out should just fail. This is about gunning for the elite/upper echelons of society. Doing that requires working like a dog not just for 2 years of high school and 4 years of college, but for likely several decades after. It's totally fine if not everyone can do it and that more people try than actually achieve it. It would be surprising if those weren't true, and engi…

Let me tell you about the scam of 'honors' classes in today's high schools. They not doing anything more introspective or challenging. It's the same classwork thrown at them faster and without as much teaching support. Just more to grind out. But when you don't understand something? You're smart, you'll figure it out . In return you get inflated GPAs that get you into better colleges. But if you can't figure it out o…

Yeah definitely. But "can you grind" is legitimate selection criterion for making it into the upper echelons. Not an ideal one, but it's not illegitimate.

Re: University of Michigan Drops First-Semester Grades To'Curb Mental Health Crisis'

#60

Post by estearum »

vjulian wrote: post #32
estearum wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't blame her but anyone who has to check out should just fail. This is about gunning for the elite/upper echelons of society. Doing that requires working like a dog not just for 2 years of high school and 4 years of college, but for likely several decades after. It's totally fine if not everyone can do it and that more people try than actually achieve it. It would be surprising if those weren't true, and engi…

Working like a dog like this is necessary if you’re gunning for the elite / upper echelon of society, yes. If you’re already in that echelon of society, it’s not necessary. Thank goodness I didn’t need to work so hard, but I can acknowledge what a shitty system it is. Help me understand why these children or their parents are gunning in this manner and working like dogs in this manner, to join into and propagate such…

Because having money is a lot better than not having money
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