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Amazon circumvents Gilroy community vote for AI data center

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Re: Amazon circumvents Gilroy community vote for AI data center

#51

Post by unethical_ban »

xtiansimon wrote: post #43
derektank wrote: post #10

This headline seems misleading at best. There was, as far as I can tell reading both this piece and the original reporting in the WSJ[0], no community vote for or against data center construction. What appears to have happened is that Amazon simply followed the existing permitting rules for other industrial construction, “Amazon’s project was approved with a single signature—by the town’s community-development direct…

I’ve been thinking about this a lot, and waiting to read an example. This might just be the first I’ve read. > “…by adhering to local zoning rules set 45 years ago” I live on Long Island NY. Here on LI and Upstate there are a surprising number of former industrial land and abandoned buildings. It’s the whole package—loss of jobs, years of post-industrial decline, lost revenue and old rules on the books. Ripe for a ne…

Why people oppose datacenters:

Philosophical opposition to AI's impact on society.

Resource utilization: power and water.

Pollution: natural gas turbines on site and broadly the pollution of power generation, and noise pollution.

Subsidies to multitrillion dollar companies at the expense of taxpayers.

Impact on local community: traffic, construction, impact to surrounding home prices.

Lies about the benefits of datacenters: talk of how much money it might bring governments, while no dividends are paid to citizens impacted by the negative effects above.

---

If a datacenter was quiet, powered by renewables, water-efficient in a place without water supply insecurity, and funded by the builders instead of taxpayers, most complaints would be solved.

These operators are in such a rush to build that they are ignoring all decency and resident concern in many cases.

Re: Amazon circumvents Gilroy community vote for AI data center

#52

Post by kccqzy »

fzeroracer wrote: post #49
kccqzy wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If noise is the concern then regulate noise. Don’t restrict data centers. If someone’s house has a dog that barks continuously, you aren’t going to say building houses here are restricted. Instead you restrict barking dogs, which is what cities do.

And companies frequently ignore city-wide noise ordinance thanks to corruption and kickbacks.

And how is that more or less likely then companies ignoring city zoning laws, or making cities grant zoning exceptions through kickbacks and corruption?

Re: Amazon circumvents Gilroy community vote for AI data center

#53

Post by nucleogenesis »

arcbyte wrote: post #18
ajross wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things can be true: the construction can be technically legal and at clear odds with community opinion. I mean, yes. Amazon can likely do this. But is this strategy really in keeping with its long term interests? I mean, look at the comments in the rest of this very topic. Do you want a communist insurrection? This is literally how you get communist insurrections. People are fucking pissed, and the bourge^M^M^M^M…

[flagged]

Your premise is a straw man so maybe keep your opinion on the intelligence of others to yourself.

Plenty of journalists are eating well reporting on the negative externalities actively felt by residents who live near data centers. It is not hard to find if you look.

Re: Amazon circumvents Gilroy community vote for AI data center

#54

Post by giaour »

InsideOutSanta wrote: post #21
arcbyte wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

5G towers have no negative externalities except looking kinda dorky. In fact, they're nice; they improve your reception. The same cannot be said for data centers. (Instead of just downvoting this, I'd appreciate it if you could point out exactly what I said is wrong. Thanks.)

5G towers are typically much smaller and less conspicuous than the towers they are replacing. One of 5G's hallmarks is its "small cell" architecture.

Re: Amazon circumvents Gilroy community vote for AI data center

#55

Post by ACCount37 »

arjie wrote: post #22

Everything here seems fine. Providing everyone with a veto on all things is a surefire way to get nothing. Instead we have a system where we have a set of rules and someone who meets those rules objectively gets to make something. This is way better. I’m glad they were able to build their datacenter.

If you give NIMBYs as much as an inch of decision-making power, they'll find a way of making you regret it.

For all the talk of "negative externalities", they sure aren't shy about imposing them on others.

Re: Amazon circumvents Gilroy community vote for AI data center

#56

Post by Apocryphon »

InsideOutSanta wrote: post #42
peyton wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we should refrain extending “negative externality” to mean “things people don’t like that might affect them.” Non-pecuniary externalities, in the Pigouvian sense, are really something you analyze to achieve efficiency. In this case, following a 5-year permitting process and plopping the industrial activity on industrial land is basically a form of bargaining and is probably acceptable from a social efficiency…

> I think we should refrain extending “negative externality” to mean “things people don’t like that might affect them.” But that's pretty much the definition of the term. It's a negative impact on a third party. If I'm living next to a data center, and it's noisy, or my electricity costs more, those are negative externalities. There are real reasons not to want data centers next door, unlike 5G towers.

In the South Valley, the pre-data center nemesis were distribution hubs, lambasted for the traffic they caused. Ironically also a key component of Amazon’s physical infrastructure.

Re: Amazon circumvents Gilroy community vote for AI data center

#57

Post by inigyou »

ACCount37 wrote: post #55
arjie wrote: post #22

Everything here seems fine. Providing everyone with a veto on all things is a surefire way to get nothing. Instead we have a system where we have a set of rules and someone who meets those rules objectively gets to make something. This is way better. I’m glad they were able to build their datacenter.

If you give NIMBYs as much as an inch of decision-making power, they'll find a way of making you regret it. For all the talk of "negative externalities", they sure aren't shy about imposing them on others.

Is a NIMBY a type of person or is it an incentive structure?

Re: Amazon circumvents Gilroy community vote for AI data center

#58

Post by mindslight »

kccqzy wrote: post #52
fzeroracer wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And companies frequently ignore city-wide noise ordinance thanks to corruption and kickbacks.

And how is that more or less likely then companies ignoring city zoning laws, or making cities grant zoning exceptions through kickbacks and corruption?

Much more likely! Zoning exceptions can be opposed and construction is very visible, as with this trend we're starting to see. Whereas once a structure is built the owner will stymie attempts at investigation by denying access, and generally has more resources than a municipality to waste endless time in court. If they're politically connected at the state/national level, they can even nullify existing pollution laws or override local ordinances.

Re: Amazon circumvents Gilroy community vote for AI data center

#59

Post by ACCount37 »

inigyou wrote: post #57
ACCount37 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you give NIMBYs as much as an inch of decision-making power, they'll find a way of making you regret it. For all the talk of "negative externalities", they sure aren't shy about imposing them on others.

Is a NIMBY a type of person or is it an incentive structure?

Both? People are very easy to FUD up about any local development, and they rarely bear any costs of denying those development.

Being eager to uncritically lap up any FUD thrown your way is definitely a personal failing. Let alone spreading that FUD. But the fact that NIMBYs are allowed to wield an outsized power and do things like stall nuclear power for decades? That companies can engage in underhanded "find an activist group that wants to NIMBY in an area where the competitor is trying to build and then just fund it"? Failure of an incentive structure.

Re: Amazon circumvents Gilroy community vote for AI data center

#60

Post by cindyllm »

ACCount37 wrote: post #55
arjie wrote: post #22

Everything here seems fine. Providing everyone with a veto on all things is a surefire way to get nothing. Instead we have a system where we have a set of rules and someone who meets those rules objectively gets to make something. This is way better. I’m glad they were able to build their datacenter.

If you give NIMBYs as much as an inch of decision-making power, they'll find a way of making you regret it. For all the talk of "negative externalities", they sure aren't shy about imposing them on others.

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