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Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

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Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#51

Post by bodash »

PeterStuer wrote: post #42

Tangentially: as a 'young adult' I was a typical 'night owl'. Cognitivly I peaked between 10pm and 3am, typically slept from 4am to 11am. When I got kids and a more 'regular' job, I was forced to change to a more normal schedule. The transition from 'owl' to 'lark' was not easy. It took about 7 years. These days, I peak 7am to 1pm.

Interesting. I’m also a night owl who struggled waking up like an early bird. Was the transition and efforts worth it? Recently I tried to find a better schedule other than spending another X years fighting my biological clock

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#52

Post by rapsey »

JSR_FDED wrote: post #29

My experience with Melatonin was very hit-or-miss. Sometimes it landed like a hammer and I was very groggy the next day. Sometimes it seemed not to work at all. This was with all sorts of doses. I've found Tart Cherry - as an OTC supplement to work much better. More pleasant drift off to sleep, less waking up at night, and no morning grogginess.

The body gets used to melatonin. It is actually a crap sleep supplement. It works worse every time you take it. What you should be doing is give the body the ingredients it needs to make its own melatonin like it is suppose to work.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#53

Post by flexagoon »

colordrops wrote: post #8
gwern wrote: post #3

Hard to discuss this with only a short abstract. They don't even give a dose or formulation of the melatonin, and details like "We found no significant differences between the melatonin and sleep groups on any of our sleep measures." raise more questions than they answer.

Anecdote - I've used it dozens of times and I'm always foggy in the AM, so I avoid it if I have to be sharp the next morning. Perhaps it's a coincidence and this study is flawed, but I can believe it pretty easily.

What dose are you using? Most OTC melatonin supplements are sold in a 3 or 5mg dose, while the correct one is ~0.3mg or even lower for some people. High dose may be related to the fogginess.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#54

Post by bohaska »

mutagen wrote: post #4

This thesis appears to be related or the underlying research: https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/51312 Indicates 2mg and 5mg were given along with the placebo. While these are common dosages available in the US, these are higher dosages than recommended by at least some sleep experts. The thesis doesn't seem to differentiate between the dosages when evaluating cognitive processes. Now I want to evaluate my sleep stack against…

Thanks for finding that!

I apologize for not reading the full study before submitting it on Hacker News and for the misleading headline on the frontpage given the context of the dosages used, I really should have noticed that the link only contained an abstract.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#55

Post by PeterStuer »

bodash wrote: post #51
PeterStuer wrote: post #42

Tangentially: as a 'young adult' I was a typical 'night owl'. Cognitivly I peaked between 10pm and 3am, typically slept from 4am to 11am. When I got kids and a more 'regular' job, I was forced to change to a more normal schedule. The transition from 'owl' to 'lark' was not easy. It took about 7 years. These days, I peak 7am to 1pm.

Interesting. I’m also a night owl who struggled waking up like an early bird. Was the transition and efforts worth it? Recently I tried to find a better schedule other than spending another X years fighting my biological clock

It was not an option. Kids need a regular schedule with school and things. It was rough though. I did not ever drink coffee before that time, but starting then I needed several cups just to avoid accidents in the morning.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#57

Post by whycome »

muvlon wrote: post #47
gleenn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I end up biting a lot of pills to get around that dose. I definitely always felt groggy until I dialed down the dose to just right, and it works perfectly: I fall asleep far quicker and more assuredly, and I don't feel to groggy. I can't believe they sell pills as large as they do, what other medication varies in dosage as much?

They're supplements, not medication, but I've seen crazy variation in the dosages of Vitamin D pills.

2000iu….or 60000iu. Yep.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#58

Post by ohthehugemanate »

tpm wrote: post #32
gleenn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I end up biting a lot of pills to get around that dose. I definitely always felt groggy until I dialed down the dose to just right, and it works perfectly: I fall asleep far quicker and more assuredly, and I don't feel to groggy. I can't believe they sell pills as large as they do, what other medication varies in dosage as much?

I suspect the dosage and absorption isn't fully understood yet or very individual. For me some 2mg pills work fine and other 3mg pills don't; currently I use 4mg time-release and it's mostly fine. 1 mg is definitely not enough for me. I would be groggy a few hours after taking the pill but not in the morning.

Since they're not regulated as medication, melatonin pills have no guarantees about actual melatonin content. In studies, the vast majority of supplement labels are inaccurate.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#59

Post by vient »

zdc1 wrote: post #56

Anecdotally, I've taken 3mg a couple of times to adjust my sleep schedule and have found that I do feel a bit drowsy/slow the next morning. Fine for me since it's just ad hoc usage, but I wouldn't take it nightly.

This may just be too much. I settled up on 0.2mg dosage - you can find 0.1mg tablets, easy to try different dosages with them. Also seems to work better if you take it 2-3 hours before sleep.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#60

Post by ButlerianJihad »

ohthehugemanate wrote: post #58
tpm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the dosage and absorption isn't fully understood yet or very individual. For me some 2mg pills work fine and other 3mg pills don't; currently I use 4mg time-release and it's mostly fine. 1 mg is definitely not enough for me. I would be groggy a few hours after taking the pill but not in the morning.

Since they're not regulated as medication, melatonin pills have no guarantees about actual melatonin content. In studies, the vast majority of supplement labels are inaccurate.

Remember the NIST reference samples...?

https://store.usp.org/product/1380105?srsltid=AfmBOop0oZFH9S...

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