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How Golden Is Silence, Actually?

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Re: How Golden Is Silence, Actually?

#51

Post by bko »

tithe wrote: post #18
jordwest wrote: post #12

I’ve been on several silent retreats now and one of the most surprising discoveries was just how much speaking is unnecessary. Without the pressure to speak amongst others, it became clear that I often said things out of anxiety - fear of looking weird or of making the other person uncomfortable. Nowadays I rarely speak when I feel that pressure and paradoxically it has led to far deeper relationships and more intere…

> Without the pressure to speak amongst others, it became clear that I often said things out of anxiety I can't go probably 100 words without saying something stupid or flat out contradictory. I'll think back to the conversation, realize I don't actually think or believe what I said, and wonder just what possessed me to say that and how many people I've alienated with words that I don't even believe or hold to be tru…

> I'll think back to the conversation, realize I don't actually think or believe what I said, and wonder just what possessed me to say that and how many people I've alienated with words that I don't even believe or hold to be true!

I too think back on past blunders or embarrassing moments, even from decades ago. What cured me of over-reflecting on this is to try to identify similar blunders from others. Surely over the years I can think of insensitive blunders of others and I can rarely do so.

So if I can't think anything anyone has ever blundered, apart from maybe a handful of instances, others likely can't recall my blunders. I've even brought up cringe moments to friend and they have no recollection.

In short, no one cares about what you say. Maybe at the moment they might cringe or immediately after, but your words have pretty much no impact on anyone.

Except my wife. She remembers everything offensive I have said.

Re: How Golden Is Silence, Actually?

#52

Post by solatic »

caymanjim wrote: post #28
doublerabbit wrote: post #14

I live in a apartment with a courtyard, it's taken me 10 years of knocking on folks doors. Normally it's new tenants who don't know how much noise they make and I have to ask them nicely if they could turn down their devices and show consideration. There have groans, feuds and aggressiveness towards me for asking for peace. I'm not unreasonable. If you wish to have a party, do it adult without DJs blaring till 3am. M…

I can relate, but the problem here is that you shouldn't live in an apartment. I never will again, for all the reasons you outlined. It's unreasonable to expect quiet in apartments. People have different schedules, they're different ages, and some are just assholes.

It is very reasonable to expect quiet in apartments. It is not reasonable to expect that you will never need to confront people to achieve it.

If you want to never talk to neighbors, then don't have any. Sadly, this is becoming more and more of a luxury, particularly in areas with economic opportunity.

Re: How Golden Is Silence, Actually?

#53

Post by fluoridation »

sublinear wrote: post #50
fluoridation wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If silence becomes trendy amongst extroverts That sounds like an impossibility, unless these extroverts are communicating non-verbally. How do you do the "extro-" part of extrovertedness without talking?

Silence can be used to assert dominance. That's why I referenced "the rules" people might be familiar with in a school setting. Maybe I can paint a clearer picture in your head if I asked you to imagine how silence would be used during an interrogation or by the main character of an action movie? Silence used to be a very popular choice by previous generations of extroverts and it wasn't "relaxing". It created the ve…

>how silence would be used during an interrogation

No, not really. If anything that makes it more ambiguous, since I can imagine several different ways for silence to be used in such a scenario.

>or by the main character of an action movie

An action hero asserts dominance not by silence, but by physicality.

>Silence used to be a very popular choice by previous generations of extroverts and it wasn't "relaxing".

Was it? How do you know? Why aren't you giving those examples instead of these ones?

Re: How Golden Is Silence, Actually?

#54

Post by jordwest »

watwut wrote: post #42
jordwest wrote: post #12

I’ve been on several silent retreats now and one of the most surprising discoveries was just how much speaking is unnecessary. Without the pressure to speak amongst others, it became clear that I often said things out of anxiety - fear of looking weird or of making the other person uncomfortable. Nowadays I rarely speak when I feel that pressure and paradoxically it has led to far deeper relationships and more intere…

It sounds like it was good for you, but I would add a word of caution about 'one of the most surprising discoveries was just how much speaking is unnecessary' part. It is easy to overdo it and torpedo relationships. Relationships are build from small interactions and when you refuse to do communication that is not strictly necessary, they just wont build. A lot of that "useless" communication has social purpose - it…

It’s a good word of caution and to be clear I’m not suggesting intentionally going mute.

The paradox I mentioned is that not rushing to fill the silence actually allows conversation to flow more naturally. It allows time and space for something more honest to arise in the mind to say.

There are also so many other means of communication that we humans naturally have - eye contact, facial expressions, body language - that communicate far more than words can and paying attention to these can lead to very connected conversation.

I think we overemphasise words. For example, you don’t need to small talk with your dog to have a deeply meaningful connection.

The reason I jumped to fill silence before was to avoid a kind of vulnerability, to appear competent and hide my anxiety. Little did I know that that was actually preventing deeper connection.

Noawaday I end up having far more involved conversations, it’s just that the conversation no longer starts from a point of trying to fill the silence.

Re: How Golden Is Silence, Actually?

#55

Post by jordwest »

sublinear wrote: post #36
jordwest wrote: post #12

I’ve been on several silent retreats now and one of the most surprising discoveries was just how much speaking is unnecessary. Without the pressure to speak amongst others, it became clear that I often said things out of anxiety - fear of looking weird or of making the other person uncomfortable. Nowadays I rarely speak when I feel that pressure and paradoxically it has led to far deeper relationships and more intere…

As much as I agree with you, I think a lot of introverts would have a different take. Silence only works like that when all the extroverts are busy yapping away. If silence becomes trendy amongst extroverts, they will create the same pressures you temporarily found relief from. All "no" policies (no talking, no running, etc.) eventually turn into a form of bullying (see reddit if you didn't have a childhood like that…

The problem is that there is a “yes” policy, a sort of social pressure that you must say something.

The opposite “no” policy is also not something to aspire to. Both are artificial policies.

The silent retreat simply helped me to see the “yes” policy even existed in the first place so I could start let it go.

Letting go of all policies is where the flow seems to happen.

Re: How Golden Is Silence, Actually?

#56

Post by jordwest »

tithe wrote: post #18
jordwest wrote: post #12

I’ve been on several silent retreats now and one of the most surprising discoveries was just how much speaking is unnecessary. Without the pressure to speak amongst others, it became clear that I often said things out of anxiety - fear of looking weird or of making the other person uncomfortable. Nowadays I rarely speak when I feel that pressure and paradoxically it has led to far deeper relationships and more intere…

> Without the pressure to speak amongst others, it became clear that I often said things out of anxiety I can't go probably 100 words without saying something stupid or flat out contradictory. I'll think back to the conversation, realize I don't actually think or believe what I said, and wonder just what possessed me to say that and how many people I've alienated with words that I don't even believe or hold to be tru…

> I'll think back to the conversation, realize I don't actually think or believe what I said

I can absolutely relate to this, it was a very common occurrence for me when I felt pressured to speak.

> Silence is one way to avoid making those mistakes, but that's me avoiding the problem, not actually solving it

It doesn’t have to be avoidance, it’s not a binary of either speaking a lot or not at all.

Silence (especially when the other person is comfortable with it too) gives the mind space to allow something that feels more honest and truthful to arise.

The problem is that most people feel a kind of anxiety when nothing is being said, and if you’re sensitive you might subconsciously pick up on this (in yourself or the other) and then feel the need to say something to end the awkwardness.

My meditation teacher had an interesting journalling technique: don‘t write a single line until you know that what you’re writing is absolutely true.

Re: How Golden Is Silence, Actually?

#57

Post by nephihaha »

ColdStream wrote: post #22
nephihaha wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done silent retreats as well, but I'm not a big fan. I live on my own and get plenty of silence that way. Being around other silent people was an odd experience, sort of like being on the train with people staring into space. It reminded me of being sent to Coventry. I did find it easy to communicate on silent retreat but not enjoyable. I just went off and read a book or took a walk.

Seems like you have already figured out a means that works for you. What works for some doesn't work for others. What is a problem for some, isn't a problem for others. Sort of like how some folks say 'everyone should meditate.' Maybe that worked for them and the issues they had, and that is brilliant, but lots of people don't have that problem or that response doesn't fit them.

It used to annoy me because I went on these retreats at Christmas. (Not a fan of Christmas.) Then they started going silent which was the thing I least wanted at that time of year. It brought up a lot of negative associations for me. We used to get punished at school by not being allowed to speak.

(I think a lot of folk should meditate, but I do know people who can't. I find it hard to meditate at home for reasons too long to go into.)

Re: How Golden Is Silence, Actually?

#58

Post by nephihaha »

zdragnar wrote: post #27
ColdStream wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like you have already figured out a means that works for you. What works for some doesn't work for others. What is a problem for some, isn't a problem for others. Sort of like how some folks say 'everyone should meditate.' Maybe that worked for them and the issues they had, and that is brilliant, but lots of people don't have that problem or that response doesn't fit them.

It's worth pointing out at least that there is a qualitative difference between silence in isolation, and being around people who are intentionally being silent. I live in a rural area and don't get much noise at all other than wind and animal noises when I'm home alone. It is comfortable precisely because it isn't artificial. Going to a silent retreat means being around people who are intentionally suppressing their…

Yes, I couldn't have said it better. Plus the thing is that I went on the retreats to escape Christmas. So I'd go for a week or two, the first day would be everyone yapping (almost too much of the reverse), the second would be what I was after, then I got several days of this enforced silence... Until the last day.

I think some of these people were coming from noisy workplaces and homes. But I live on my own and my area is reasonably quiet (not completely peaceful, there is a lot of low level sound.) I don't have children running around. But it also reminded me of being punished as a child. Because if they couldn't catch someone at school we had to go around in silence as a punishment.

I would prefer the noises of nature. Which is precisely what I did. I headed to the local nature reserve near the retreat centre. Not noisy but somehow less prisonlike.

Re: How Golden Is Silence, Actually?

#59

Post by m463 »

Foreignborn wrote: post #26
nradov wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other HN users keep telling us that we should support dense housing development. I think those people have never lived in an apartment complex with trashy neighbors.

i live in shibuya and i have countless videos where it’s just make the damn building with noise in mind (RC, interior insulation, gapped flooring, etc). it’s very possible. (btw I am as country bumpkin as they come, my village has less than 200 people so i understand rural living.)

You know what wonderful thing I noticed about Japan wrt noise?

Their heavy equipment doesn't have those backup beepers.

I watched a construction site and all I heard were the well-muffled excavators grunting a little to move their hydraulic arms.

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