The Eligible Bachelor Paradox • Hacker News Board

Re: The Eligible Bachelor Paradox

#51

Post by whacked_new » Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 4:32 PM UTC

dgabriel wrote: post #48

vaksel wrote: post #24

I think additional part of the problem is that men are starting to realize that they really don't have anything to gain by being married. And they are so afraid of having to go through a divorce that can wipe them out, that they don't feel like trying. I mean a 50% divorce rate in this country, is pretty much a coin toss on whether or not you lose everything. Seriously the only thing to gain by being married is savin…

Do you think that no American women read this site? Or do you think that you are so superior to us that your blanket statements, no matter how ignorant and harmful, are more important than treating us as if we were actual human beings? Do all men stay in shape their whole marriage? Is pettiness always limited to the female partner? Please. I work hard, I have always worked, and every woman I know works (aside from th…

In his defense, he's merely speaking out of Bayesian consequences. There's nothing to dare or not dare about. If you hear people get mugged in a neighborhood more than another, you'd avoid it and possibly speak out against it, but as a consequence, violate all the good people in the neighborhood.

What I feel is lacking, and very much so, is the other side of the perspective. (and by that I don't mean by merely pointing out that opinion is disrespectful; I mean by showing evidence for the opposite of the opinion)

Re: The Eligible Bachelor Paradox

#52

Post by vaksel » Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 4:35 PM UTC

inglorian wrote: post #30

vaksel wrote: post #24

I think additional part of the problem is that men are starting to realize that they really don't have anything to gain by being married. And they are so afraid of having to go through a divorce that can wipe them out, that they don't feel like trying. I mean a 50% divorce rate in this country, is pretty much a coin toss on whether or not you lose everything. Seriously the only thing to gain by being married is savin…

I'm always surprised to see the extreme bitterness that comes out on these threads. >>Every single married guy I know is MISERABLE. The sex pretty much stops within the first couple of years. And the woman gains mega weight, because now that they "got" you, they don't need to keep in shape. And then the whole bitchy wife comes out treating the guy as a second class citizen. You do seem to know an awful lot of extreme…

See thats the thing, your anecdotal evidence doesn't disprove my assertion, it reinforces it. 40 years ago the women knew that for a successful marriage you needed a mutual effort. I'm talking about modern women, who know that divorce is a viable option, and that it is not worth trying when you have a big pay day in front of you.

I know a lot of unhappy men, not couples. In those relationships women seem to be fine. Why not? They sit on their asses doing nothing, while the man works his ass off trying to get the relationship humming again. Do I know some happy couples? Sure,but most of those have the european wife who wasn't raised on sex and the city.

Except the startup thing is your own doing and you know what you are getting into. With divorce, it can come out of nowhere, when you least expect it. And do you think taking a risk at 25 to do a startup is the same as losing everything you worked for at 30, 40, 50? At least with a startup there is a payoff at the end of the tunnel, with marriage you either gain nothing or lose everything.

Well maybe its just my personal experience, but the European girls seem to bring a lot more to relationships than the American girls. And its not a submissive thing, its more of a willingness to work things out.

The thing you need to realize is that the way the woman behaves when she is single or dating, is COMPLETELY different from the way she behaves when she is married. She doesn't need to hide who she truly is, because with the divorce option on the table she hit the jackpot. You think any of my friends would have married their wives if they acted the same way they act now? Hell no....hell one of them married his wife for the sole reason that she supposedly enjoyed having sex and couldn't get enough. That lasted exactly until they had their first kid, at which point she completely cut him off. The other, married his wife because she was supposedly the nicest girl he ever met, with that one she acted like bridezilla before the wedding, and seemed to have forgotten to turn that off afterwords.

Its not a hatred, its realism. I'll date American women, no problem. Because during the dating phase, they act just fine. The problem is, that for most of them its just an act until they tie the matrimonial knot, at which point the real them comes out, who you are stuck with.

Re: The Eligible Bachelor Paradox

#53

Post by time_management » Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 4:48 PM UTC

dgabriel wrote: post #50

ahpeeyem wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"suburban-bred office cows" that is gold :)

So how do we refer to the low quality suburban men? Or is this thread limited to woman-bashing?

No, there definitely needs to be a term for such men. Lumberghs, perhaps? (This would be after Bill Lumbergh, the idiot middle-manager in Office Space.)

I would say that, whatever the term is, it should evoke the image of a middle-manager petty tyrant who takes his emasculation (both in the home/family sphere, and by nature of his being subordinate to upper management) out on his underlings.

Re: The Eligible Bachelor Paradox

#54

Post by huherto » Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 5:08 PM UTC

whacked_new wrote: post #49

time_management wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they are so afraid of having to go through a divorce that can wipe them out, that they don't feel like trying. Yep. It's an utterly broken system where the wife can decide she's not into her husband any more and walk away with half of his shit. Every single married guy I know is MISERABLE. The sex pretty much stops within the first couple of years. And the woman gains mega weight, because now that they "got" you,…

I find this situation very perplexing because there seems to be a grossly unsustainable "mating economy" here but I have never seen a discussion addressing it (possibly because they seem to be held by, almost exclusively, men). But consider this scenario. There are a group of farmers, who only know how to plant food X. For one reason or another, food X starts tasting bad. Then, the farmers discover a food Y in the vi…

I do not understand your analogy. Please explain.

Re: The Eligible Bachelor Paradox

#55

Post by old-gregg » Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 5:11 PM UTC

inglorian wrote: post #30

vaksel wrote: post #24

I think additional part of the problem is that men are starting to realize that they really don't have anything to gain by being married. And they are so afraid of having to go through a divorce that can wipe them out, that they don't feel like trying. I mean a 50% divorce rate in this country, is pretty much a coin toss on whether or not you lose everything. Seriously the only thing to gain by being married is savin…

I'm always surprised to see the extreme bitterness that comes out on these threads. >>Every single married guy I know is MISERABLE. The sex pretty much stops within the first couple of years. And the woman gains mega weight, because now that they "got" you, they don't need to keep in shape. And then the whole bitchy wife comes out treating the guy as a second class citizen. You do seem to know an awful lot of extreme…

inglorian, I really like your attitude and I can't add anything to this discussion since I never dated an American girl myself. However, I have a few friends in real estate circles and all of them agree that whenever they have a house on sale due to divorce, the most common cause by far is a male losing his high paying job.

I find it shocking and very telling fact about internal dynamics at most American families. You would think losing your job calls for your partner's support, while it seems to me that for significant number of American men losing a high-paying job likely means losing the family too.

Re: The Eligible Bachelor Paradox

#56

Post by inglorian » Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 5:19 PM UTC

vaksel wrote: post #52

inglorian wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always surprised to see the extreme bitterness that comes out on these threads. >>Every single married guy I know is MISERABLE. The sex pretty much stops within the first couple of years. And the woman gains mega weight, because now that they "got" you, they don't need to keep in shape. And then the whole bitchy wife comes out treating the guy as a second class citizen. You do seem to know an awful lot of extreme…

See thats the thing, your anecdotal evidence doesn't disprove my assertion, it reinforces it. 40 years ago the women knew that for a successful marriage you needed a mutual effort. I'm talking about modern women, who know that divorce is a viable option, and that it is not worth trying when you have a big pay day in front of you. I know a lot of unhappy men, not couples. In those relationships women seem to be fine.…

Are American women so adept at hiding their "true" selves for so long? Perhaps your friends are poor judges of character, or simply didn't date them long enough to properly assess how they would function as a married couple.

Where I come from, it is taken as common knowledge that you should live together for a significant amount of time before getting married (2+ years is usual). Also, big extravagant weddings are not the norm -- most of my immediate and extended family got married by signing papers in a courthouse, or in a small ceremony at the most.

>>She doesn't need to hide who she truly is, because with the divorce option on the table she hit the jackpot.

I find this surprising also. From what I hear, divorce is terrible for everyone. I can't imagine that so many women marry into a relationship they don't expect to maintain (emotionally and sexually), especially with the way love and marriage are so glorified in the US.

Re: The Eligible Bachelor Paradox

#57

Post by inglorian » Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 5:29 PM UTC

old-gregg wrote: post #55

inglorian wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always surprised to see the extreme bitterness that comes out on these threads. >>Every single married guy I know is MISERABLE. The sex pretty much stops within the first couple of years. And the woman gains mega weight, because now that they "got" you, they don't need to keep in shape. And then the whole bitchy wife comes out treating the guy as a second class citizen. You do seem to know an awful lot of extreme…

inglorian, I really like your attitude and I can't add anything to this discussion since I never dated an American girl myself. However, I have a few friends in real estate circles and all of them agree that whenever they have a house on sale due to divorce, the most common cause by far is a male losing his high paying job. I find it shocking and very telling fact about internal dynamics at most American families. Yo…

You are right, that is terribly sad. I also find it very strange, though: unless I am missing something, the woman isn't going to be better off on her own (especially with children) than with the currently-unemployed husband, unless she somehow expects to marry another high-earner immediately (this seems very unlikely). How is it a better decision financially to get divorced in this situation than to stay together? Divorce alone is extremely expensive, and if the couple did not sign a prenuptual agreement, presumably the man cannot be forced to pay high alimony payments if he is unemployed.

Re: The Eligible Bachelor Paradox

#58

Post by Xichekolas » Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 5:33 PM UTC

inglorian wrote: post #57

old-gregg wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

inglorian, I really like your attitude and I can't add anything to this discussion since I never dated an American girl myself. However, I have a few friends in real estate circles and all of them agree that whenever they have a house on sale due to divorce, the most common cause by far is a male losing his high paying job. I find it shocking and very telling fact about internal dynamics at most American families. Yo…

You are right, that is terribly sad. I also find it very strange, though: unless I am missing something, the woman isn't going to be better off on her own (especially with children) than with the currently-unemployed husband, unless she somehow expects to marry another high-earner immediately (this seems very unlikely). How is it a better decision financially to get divorced in this situation than to stay together? D…

I'd guess that the reason is actually the opposite. The marriage wasn't doing that well to begin with, but there was a financial incentive not to rock the boat (the money).

Once you lose that salary, the woman has less incentive to put up with a marriage she is unhappy with. If people will marry someone just for the money, I don't find it much of a stretch to assume they will stick together as long as the funds keep flowing.

Re: The Eligible Bachelor Paradox

#59

Post by vaksel » Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 5:33 PM UTC

inglorian wrote: post #56

vaksel wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See thats the thing, your anecdotal evidence doesn't disprove my assertion, it reinforces it. 40 years ago the women knew that for a successful marriage you needed a mutual effort. I'm talking about modern women, who know that divorce is a viable option, and that it is not worth trying when you have a big pay day in front of you. I know a lot of unhappy men, not couples. In those relationships women seem to be fine.…

Are American women so adept at hiding their "true" selves for so long? Perhaps your friends are poor judges of character, or simply didn't date them long enough to properly assess how they would function as a married couple. Where I come from, it is taken as common knowledge that you should live together for a significant amount of time before getting married (2+ years is usual). Also, big extravagant weddings are no…

its not really being adept, they just hide who they truly are. They may hate sex, but they do it, because they know that if they don't put out the guy will leave. They go to the gym, because they know if they become a fat slob the guy will leave. They act nice, because they know that if they are a bitch the guy will leave. When they get married on the other hand, they know that the guy can't leave anymore, so they can act how they want...and if the guy leaves, they'll get a huge payday.

I'm not sure about judges of character, but most of the guys dated their wives for 3-5 years and lived together for at least 2 years.

Divorce being terrible, mostly goes to the idea that the 2 people will end up hating each other. But its much more terrible for guys, who end up losing everything they worked for.

Yes, most women don't marry with idea of a divorce in mind. But its too juicy of a consolation prize, not to keep in mind when the relationship hits the rocks. Yes the idea of marriage is glorified in the U.S. and its part of the problem. It convinces people that all you need to do is get married, and the relationship will prosper all by itself

Re: The Eligible Bachelor Paradox

#60

Post by mynameishere » Mon, Feb 23, 2009, 5:33 PM UTC

vaksel wrote: post #52

inglorian wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always surprised to see the extreme bitterness that comes out on these threads. >>Every single married guy I know is MISERABLE. The sex pretty much stops within the first couple of years. And the woman gains mega weight, because now that they "got" you, they don't need to keep in shape. And then the whole bitchy wife comes out treating the guy as a second class citizen. You do seem to know an awful lot of extreme…

See thats the thing, your anecdotal evidence doesn't disprove my assertion, it reinforces it. 40 years ago the women knew that for a successful marriage you needed a mutual effort. I'm talking about modern women, who know that divorce is a viable option, and that it is not worth trying when you have a big pay day in front of you. I know a lot of unhappy men, not couples. In those relationships women seem to be fine.…

I read somewhere that one of the biggest classes of people on welfare are recently divorced women. I'm inclined to agree that marriage can be a ripoff, but it doesn't always play out that way. Women are often in a dependent position, for the simple reason that the division of labor involves male income and female fertility, the latter of which is poorly remunerative.