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Brazilian farmers tokenized dairy cows to get loans, bypassing bank limits

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Re: Brazilian farmers tokenized dairy cows to get loans, bypassing bank limits

#51
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're suggesting a barter economy. It works like this: 1. Bob grows oranges, and wants shoes 2. Ted hunts for meat, and wants oranges 3. Sam makes shoes, and wants meat The only way this can work is to have a 3-way transaction. But with a money system, the money is traded without needing a 3-way transaction. It's much more efficient.

Not really, I am not saying to remove moneys entirely and use assets trading only, but the money printed or valued should be based on tangible assets, actual cost, not some made up speculation. As I mentioned above, a house that cost 100k to build and handover should never exceed that value plus profit markup, the older it gets, the cheaper it should be, just like any other assets and like how japan did it to solve t…

yes, your plan would require extreme levels of oppression. it's a non-starter in anything remotely resembling a democracy. and if implemented, the outcome would still not be what you expect.

houses get more expensive due to changes in scarcity, i.e. the number of people who want to buy houses (and can afford to) in an area increasing faster than the number of people who want to sell houses there.

the main lever a government has, is to make new construction easier and cheaper -- that increases the supply. commies don't seem to like that, often because they're NIMBYs, but also because new construction tends to be in the high end segment. commies don't seem to understand that people who move into newly built high end housing do so by moving out of existing, on average slightly less high end housing, which then becomes free, and so on... all the way down to the lowest end housing. increasing supply at the highest end increases housing supply in all segments, though with increasing delay.

an option that doesn't help much with existing scarcity, but with future changes in scarcity, would be a recurring land tax (proportional to the local value of owned land). in order to be democratically feasible this would have to be introduced very gradually (over the course of 30+ years) and combined with tax decreases elsewhere.

Re: Brazilian farmers tokenized dairy cows to get loans, bypassing bank limits

#52
post #50
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "reusable for free" aspect is about building ecosystems. Abstractions that can be freely integrated with have low barriers to entry to existing complementary systems being updated to integrate with them, or with new systems evolving to wrap them or work in terms of them. This (plus the fact that blockchain smart contracts are generally limited in size) has the effect of commoditizing much of any given design, ins…

We mostly agree on your points. As I said, the FOSS aspects (which you describe well) are of interest to "undercapitalized startups, amateur financial services, and hackers interested in innovation in this area." I think my additional points are essential, however: Consumers (and the public) are not interested in rapid development of financial instruments, they are interested in integrity and availability. To them, '…

Well eventually consumers don't really know how the system they are using works. Prediction markets run on blockchain but few people know this. Robinhood is offering trading in perpetuals of companies that haven't IPOed yet and you would not know.

Re: Brazilian farmers tokenized dairy cows to get loans, bypassing bank limits

#53
post #52
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We mostly agree on your points. As I said, the FOSS aspects (which you describe well) are of interest to "undercapitalized startups, amateur financial services, and hackers interested in innovation in this area." I think my additional points are essential, however: Consumers (and the public) are not interested in rapid development of financial instruments, they are interested in integrity and availability. To them, '…

Well eventually consumers don't really know how the system they are using works. Prediction markets run on blockchain but few people know this. Robinhood is offering trading in perpetuals of companies that haven't IPOed yet and you would not know.

> Prediction markets run on blockchain

Why? It's not efficient computing. To give techy users confidence that their bets are immutable?

Re: Brazilian farmers tokenized dairy cows to get loans, bypassing bank limits

#54
post #53
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well eventually consumers don't really know how the system they are using works. Prediction markets run on blockchain but few people know this. Robinhood is offering trading in perpetuals of companies that haven't IPOed yet and you would not know.

> Prediction markets run on blockchain Why? It's not efficient computing. To give techy users confidence that their bets are immutable?

I get the sense that it's mostly that institutional HF/liquidity traders can trust that the system isn't unfairly advantaging anyone.

In a centralized system where trades are accepted in the order presented, HF/liquidity trading systems gain competitive edge by competing on speed-of-light trade-submission delay. This requires building FPGA-based trading logic colocated with the exchange hardware, or even accepting margin-capturing deals with the exchanges to have your bots run as workloads on the exchange's own hardware. This is a positional "rent-seeking contest", where nobody is gaining by competing, since all the resources are spent on the competition itself.

Blockchain architecture is designed in such a way that you can effectively trust a blockchain to have "nothing up its sleeve" in terms of how or when a submitted transaction will be accepted/linearized into the ledger. This is mostly due to blockchains (even proof-of-authority blockchains) being multi-region-distributed multi-master systems that must linearize their per-validator-node state using distributed consensus protocols; and which therefore have formalized rules for which transactions will be prioritized for inclusion, that are stated in terms of an abstract machine using things like tx fees and hash difficulty, rather than relying on any property of the underlying physical substrate of nodes and network connections (since such properties are ephemeral observations that can't be independently audited, whereas tx fees and hash difficulty are immutable properties computable upon the tx payload data [plus current chain state] itself.)

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Mind you, you could totally have a centralized exchange with formalized abstract rules for how inbound trade orders will be linearized, that operate on some quantized timestep, and then ignore physical arrival time of orders within each timestep in favor of other well-specified factors.

But how would you prove to the traders on your platform that that's what you've built — i.e. that you didn't secretly prioritize certain trades over others (maybe faster trades, maybe something else), in a way where they can accept that guarantee, and so dedicate all of their budget to "actually trading", rather than feeling obligated to continue to spend much of their resources hunting for such hidden opportunities to bias the platform in their favor?

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Blockchains do this by operating in such a way that it's basically impossible for the blockchain network as a whole to have the tx-acceptance-and-ordering semantics it has, without each individual node having the operational semantics you would expect of it. Nodes can (and do) prioritize their own txs for inclusion in blocks they validate themselves (which is fine, as the consensus algorithm ensures in one way or another that no validator can keep the advantage in validating more blocks.) But in all other ways, blockchain tx acceptance and ordering must be "fair": since you can spray the same tx across multiple validator nodes, and they'll each independently try to include it in the next block they produce, any one node biasing inclusion against your tx would just result in that node potentially losing out on collecting your tx's fees (i.e. being less profitable than a node without said bias), since another node will come along and build a block that does collect that fee. (In fact, in a chain-weight-based PoW consensus approach, if your biased block and the other node's unbiased block form sibling side-chains, the unbiased sidechain with its higher collected tx fees is "heavier", and so preferred by the network.)

Blockchain networks themselves would say they design things this way for transaction censorship resistance: since blockchains ensure txs land in blocks (and those blocks land in the canonical chain) through economic incentives, the system has to be designed to prohibit structural private bias against certain kinds of txs or blocks, since if such bias was permitted, those txs/blocks could be punished to the point that they'd just never be "profitable enough" to make it into the chain at all.

It just so happens that a trading platform being designed around "transaction censorship resistance", also inherently precludes the possibility of traders on that platform engaging in the rent-seeking contest of HFT. (To the point that you could hypothesize the converse: if a trading platform claims to be built on a blockchain-like substrate, but enables HFT, then you should worry about its censorship resistance!)

Re: Brazilian farmers tokenized dairy cows to get loans, bypassing bank limits

#55
post #54
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prediction markets run on blockchain Why? It's not efficient computing. To give techy users confidence that their bets are immutable?

I get the sense that it's mostly that institutional HF/liquidity traders can trust that the system isn't unfairly advantaging anyone. In a centralized system where trades are accepted in the order presented, HF/liquidity trading systems gain competitive edge by competing on speed-of-light trade-submission delay. This requires building FPGA-based trading logic colocated with the exchange hardware, or even accepting ma…

Thanks. I would just add that exchanges have been sufficient for traders for centuries (millennia?) before blockchain, including high-frequency.

Can blockchain performance can keep up with high-frequency?: What if I buy an asset then want to sell it before the blockchain has registered the purchase, and then the next person wants to perform a transaction. Where's the proof then?

Even if we brute-force the resources to provide performance for a small exchange, could it scale up?

Maybe my understanding of blockchain performance is outdated or based on certain tech or situations. Or maybe it's a probem on the todo list (normal for a developing tech).

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