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Mechanistic interpretability researchers applying causality theory to LLMs

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Re: Mechanistic interpretability researchers applying causality theory to LLMs

#51
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They dont. They have input that runs through a invisible stochastic canyon. As long as there is previous experience the stochastic canyon never ends. If there is none or isignificant one, or it runs out of tokkens, it hallucinates and the illusion falls apart. There is no reasoning, just the invisible grand canyon of all of human experience and knowledge. PS: try to get it to retell you a clichee movie or book and yo…

It's probably helpful in this discussion to make a difference between two definitions of reasoning: 1. phenomenal reasoning, requiring consciousness and subjective experience 2. functional reasoning, transforming premises into conclusions using logic I think you are attacking this using definition 1, whereas the article is obviously aiming at a different type of reasoning, and trying to formalize what is actually goi…

>1. phenomenal reasoning, requiring consciousness and subjective experience

I think it is incumbent upon anyone arguing that something does not posses any given property to provide a non-circular definition of what it is that they are declaring an absence of.

All of the descriptions of experiential reasoning are usually defined in terms of rephrasing of the claim "true understanding", "conscious", "aware", "knowing" all hinge on a synonymous aspect of the words that try and shift the responsibly of explanation to the next term used in a cyclic manner.

For the weaker sense of reasoning, there simply isn't any argument that it is not happening. A calculator can perform the weaker sense. The analysis of this aspect of LLMs is purely a question of how, not what.

Re: Mechanistic interpretability researchers applying causality theory to LLMs

#52
post #61

[stub for offtopicness] [[All: please don't post shallow-generic reactions to baity titles. Those are basically the same thing, a la https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin_vase , and we're trying for something more substantive here.]]

They dont. They have input that runs through a invisible stochastic canyon. As long as there is previous experience the stochastic canyon never ends. If there is none or isignificant one, or it runs out of tokkens, it hallucinates and the illusion falls apart. There is no reasoning, just the invisible grand canyon of all of human experience and knowledge. PS: try to get it to retell you a clichee movie or book and yo…

With that definition, computers don't play chess, they just move the pieces using some weights and backtracking.

Re: Mechanistic interpretability researchers applying causality theory to LLMs

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guess what? SAT solvers have also solved unsolved math problems. Do you believe they are “reasoning”?

The question of whether a SAT solver can reason is about as interesting as the question of whether a submarine can swim. (EWD867, EWD898)

I think you are missing the point of that statement

It is a claim that swimming is a word that defines a context. It is an explicit statement that the question of whether a submarine can swim has nothing to do with the capability of the submarine.

If you are asking which pigeon hole we are putting something into, the answer is "The one we put it into". This is what make the question uninteresting.

If you are asking what is it about this pigeon hole that people value and does that align with the criteria that people use to decide categorisation. That very much is an interesting and complicated question.

Re: Mechanistic interpretability researchers applying causality theory to LLMs

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're describing a process by which a 'thinking' entity uses cognition to refine a solution to a stated problem. That's a lot of words so usually we shorten this to 'reasoning'. Do LLMs 'think'? I 'think' they do in a way. I don't really know how I think myself but I know I do and therefore I am (thanks, Descartes). I have a somewhat better grasp of the way LLMs 'think'. They do so sequentially, building a chain of…

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Re: Mechanistic interpretability researchers applying causality theory to LLMs

#56
post #61

[stub for offtopicness] [[All: please don't post shallow-generic reactions to baity titles. Those are basically the same thing, a la https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin_vase , and we're trying for something more substantive here.]]

They dont. They have input that runs through a invisible stochastic canyon. As long as there is previous experience the stochastic canyon never ends. If there is none or isignificant one, or it runs out of tokkens, it hallucinates and the illusion falls apart. There is no reasoning, just the invisible grand canyon of all of human experience and knowledge. PS: try to get it to retell you a clichee movie or book and yo…

i love how anthropic puts out some bs like this every few weeks 'we saw some red bridge lights blinking in model weights when someone mentions sfo. Arent they just like us?"

Re: Mechanistic interpretability researchers applying causality theory to LLMs

#57
>“Mechanistic interpretability will probably never reduce large language models to a few simple equations,” Icard concluded, “but it may gradually turn deep neural networks into systems whose hidden algorithms can at least partly be understood.”

what is the basis for this optimism ?

Re: Mechanistic interpretability researchers applying causality theory to LLMs

#58
post #61

[stub for offtopicness] [[All: please don't post shallow-generic reactions to baity titles. Those are basically the same thing, a la https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin_vase , and we're trying for something more substantive here.]]

No, talking to itself is not reasoning.

Re: Mechanistic interpretability researchers applying causality theory to LLMs

#60
post #61

[stub for offtopicness] [[All: please don't post shallow-generic reactions to baity titles. Those are basically the same thing, a la https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin_vase , and we're trying for something more substantive here.]]

They dont. They have input that runs through a invisible stochastic canyon. As long as there is previous experience the stochastic canyon never ends. If there is none or isignificant one, or it runs out of tokkens, it hallucinates and the illusion falls apart. There is no reasoning, just the invisible grand canyon of all of human experience and knowledge. PS: try to get it to retell you a clichee movie or book and yo…

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