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Never argue with your boss (2009)

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Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#51

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

quotemstr wrote: post #50
specproc wrote: post #9

The article seems to be about arguing with your boss in _public_. Having a fight with anyone in public in a professional environment is pretty intense behaviour. Not saying I've never done it, but it's not usually productive. It takes a lot of skill to get things done your way without alienating people. We should always be careful of how we "debate" in a professional context. Discussion habits picked up on HN transla…

> Debate in private, come to a decision and move forward. This norm is terrible. It's a chief reason California tech companies become dysfunctional. Debate spreads common knowledge and ensures ideas get tested before execution. Hiding discussions is selfish, antisocial behavior that prioritizes your social image over idea quality and everyone's benefit. If you're working for someone who can't tolerate debate, leave.…

> If you're working for someone who can't tolerate debate, leave.

I dunno about you, but I've left a bunch of jobs (or been left) because I thought the people involved could handle debate, when they couldn't.

Your boss is a human, they have issues that may prevent them from accepting your (clearly better ;) ) solution, or they may have context that they can't share (their boss might be pushing for something dumb).

Ultimately, the hierarchy and the power differentials are real, and unless you're happy jumping ship all the time (which I am not, anymore) you need to find a way to deal with disagreements more productively (which often involves letting people save face by disagreeing in private).

> It's a chief reason California tech companies become dysfunctional.

I think the deeper reason for Cali tech dysfunction is the relentless norm of frankly insane positivity, not the ability for people to debate.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#52

Post by DannyBee »

Everyone in this story sucks.

As a manager, the people I hired were almost always smarter than me or better than me at various things. That's why i hired them.

I did my best to make sure they were empowered to solve the problems the org needed solving.

Why would I not want their opinions or viewpoints, especially if they differed from my own?

Heck, why would i try to enforce my opinion or viewpoint in the first place?

Not realizing this makes the boss here a crappy manager. Yes, lots of crappy managers exist (for many reasons - one commonly overlooked one being that technicaly knowledge/etc is often shared and discussed much more than manager or organizational knowledge. So it doesn't proliferate as easily and quickly. There are many other reasons, some simpler, some more complex)

Truthfully, I resolved many many more arguments between people (within my own org or between orgs) than between me and someone else.

At the same time, the person arguing with their boss doesn't realize (until much later) their job is not to be technically right. Technically right/good is one of many aspects that are often getting traded off against each other. One thing they seem to not have discussed at all is "is this worth arguing about?". Does this choice really matter? What was the worst thing that happens if they don't do it the way they were arguing about. How likely is that really to happen, and if it does, can you tell early enough to do something about it? etc.

Reading this story feels like someone dragging out an argument continuously that simply didn't need to be argued about at all because it didn't matter enough.

The takeaway isn't that you should avoid arguing with your boss (as others say, you should run away from bosses you can't disagree with). The takeaway is that you should stop and think about whether this is really an argument that needs to be had, instead of arguing about everything because it's not perfect.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#53

Post by datakan »

silentmafia wrote: post #23
datakan wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A manager is the subordinate. Their entire role is to provide for the employees the things and support needed to get their jobs done. Corporations arent the military, there are no "superior's" except in the minds of the mentally and emotionally fragile who think they were put there to rule over others. Steve Jobs famously said, "I don't hire smart people to tell them what to do. I hire them to tell me what to do". He…

yet the salaries impose hierarchies..

Salary is supposed to imply risk. The higher the responsibility the higher the risk the higher the reward. That’s another topic on its own.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#54

Post by quotemstr »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #51
quotemstr wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Debate in private, come to a decision and move forward. This norm is terrible. It's a chief reason California tech companies become dysfunctional. Debate spreads common knowledge and ensures ideas get tested before execution. Hiding discussions is selfish, antisocial behavior that prioritizes your social image over idea quality and everyone's benefit. If you're working for someone who can't tolerate debate, leave.…

> If you're working for someone who can't tolerate debate, leave. I dunno about you, but I've left a bunch of jobs (or been left) because I thought the people involved could handle debate, when they couldn't. Your boss is a human, they have issues that may prevent them from accepting your (clearly better ;) ) solution, or they may have context that they can't share (their boss might be pushing for something dumb). Ul…

> relentless norm of frankly insane positivity, not the ability for people to debate.

They are aspects of the same thing.

Debate implies that things aren't already perfect. "Why would positive people argue", a Californoid might ask, "instead of working together to make something great?".

My chief problem with California tech is that it's structured to reward schmoozing at the expense of ideas themselves and marketed as the opposite. It's unreality.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#55

Post by aleph_minus_one »

jongjong wrote: post #26

100%, don't argue with your boss. Sometimes, depending on how they phrased a statement or proposal, you can present contradictory facts but never claim to have the answer. Either the boss wants to hear your opinion or they don't. You need to look at body language, tone and wording to decide. In any case, they must decide. Disagreeing in front of other employees is especially risky... It can work in your favor sometim…

> Either the boss wants to hear your opinion or they don't. You need to look at body language, tone and wording to decide.

Not everybody is adept at interpreting such subtle signs. A particular problem is when bosses say things like "Your opinion is appreciated.", "I value honest feedback.", blabla, but give different body signs.

In my opinion, this problem is less marked in Germany than the USA, because people tend to use of such sugar-coated lies much less in Germany.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#56

Post by sillyfluke »

Frieren wrote: post #46
specproc wrote: post #9

The article seems to be about arguing with your boss in _public_. Having a fight with anyone in public in a professional environment is pretty intense behaviour. Not saying I've never done it, but it's not usually productive. It takes a lot of skill to get things done your way without alienating people. We should always be careful of how we "debate" in a professional context. Discussion habits picked up on HN transla…

> The article seems to be about arguing with your boss in _public_. This is the main reason that most abuse happens in companies. Discussions are kept private so nobody can add 1+1 and see how toxic are certain bosses. This also enables misalignments and lies. I have seen bosses that are will say one thing to one employee and a different one to the next and even a different one upwards to leadership. Lack of transpar…

I agree, though it should be said arguing in public is for people willing to accept the consequences of their actions (retaliation, getting fired etc). That's why ideally you should arrange your life (mentally or materially) in such a way that allows you to act without the fear of being fired, if possible obviously.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#57

Post by olsondv »

DannyBee wrote: post #52

Everyone in this story sucks. As a manager, the people I hired were almost always smarter than me or better than me at various things. That's why i hired them. I did my best to make sure they were empowered to solve the problems the org needed solving. Why would I not want their opinions or viewpoints, especially if they differed from my own? Heck, why would i try to enforce my opinion or viewpoint in the first place…

Never been a manager, but there comes a point when you realize that you do not have the full picture as a subordinate. Your boss isn’t just managing you. They have a whole team to coordinate with and against the priorities of the rest of the business to stay on track. If you’re not helping them and are even making more work, it will not help your career.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#58

Post by cindyllm »

olsondv wrote: post #57
DannyBee wrote: post #52

Everyone in this story sucks. As a manager, the people I hired were almost always smarter than me or better than me at various things. That's why i hired them. I did my best to make sure they were empowered to solve the problems the org needed solving. Why would I not want their opinions or viewpoints, especially if they differed from my own? Heck, why would i try to enforce my opinion or viewpoint in the first place…

Never been a manager, but there comes a point when you realize that you do not have the full picture as a subordinate. Your boss isn’t just managing you. They have a whole team to coordinate with and against the priorities of the rest of the business to stay on track. If you’re not helping them and are even making more work, it will not help your career.

[dead]

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#59

Post by hackrmn »

DannyBee wrote: post #52

Everyone in this story sucks. As a manager, the people I hired were almost always smarter than me or better than me at various things. That's why i hired them. I did my best to make sure they were empowered to solve the problems the org needed solving. Why would I not want their opinions or viewpoints, especially if they differed from my own? Heck, why would i try to enforce my opinion or viewpoint in the first place…

No, boss -- you suck.

See what I did there?

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#60

Post by narag »

Or you have the regrets when you needed to speak up and you didn't because you value your job security more than your duty: crooked or woefully incompetent boss. In the army instructors strongly warned about jumping chain of command. But you know, sometimes it gets very ugly, specially when they come after you.
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