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Challenging the Narrative of European Decline
51–60 of 115 posts
Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline
#52Krugman so badly wants this to be true. But handwaving away massive difference in IT innovation and in practical data like housing size and vastly greater American consumption does not make it true. Just 20% of European homes even have air conditioning. European industrial energy costs are more than 2x the U.S. Don't ignore the data. Europe is behind and falling behind at an ever-faster clip. And the strategic issues…
Air conditioning is not needed in most of Europe, no idea why that would be a measurement of economic advancement. Krugman presented arguments with data, it'd be nice to see your data that counters Krugman's argument, not a whole different set of measurements that you are defining as the basis of comparison. It's just a strawman with makeup.
Yeah that used to be true 40 years ago maybe
Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline
#53Krugman so badly wants this to be true. But handwaving away massive difference in IT innovation and in practical data like housing size and vastly greater American consumption does not make it true. Just 20% of European homes even have air conditioning. European industrial energy costs are more than 2x the U.S. Don't ignore the data. Europe is behind and falling behind at an ever-faster clip. And the strategic issues…
This comment probably won't go down well but your point irked me. > And the strategic issues of continued vast unskilled migration into Europe If only there wasn't a global power invading countries for oil reserves over the years and causing mass migration and destabilising those places? Also have you considered 100% of the EU doesn't NEED air conditioning? Come back when you have a minimum wage and universal healthc…
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Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline
#54As someone who lives in Europe, my impression is that the continent's first priority is how to keep paying the fat pensions it pays to its retired class, the second priority is how to keep paying the pensions followed by a distant third about how to keep paying the pensions. For me it's remarkable how the continent lives looking at the past and not at the future. The older people I talk to show no concern about Europ…
I'm not sure what this obsession is at the moment with 'fat pensions'. Pensions are far from 'fat', and (european) governments have been very dishonest about what will happen state pensions for decades. Governments simply don't have the nerve or honesty to tell the population what's going to happen and get the message across to everyone. And at the same time, youth unemployment is really high. So what do you want, old people to retire 'early' to make way for young people to work, thus requiring a 'fat pension', or do you want them to never retire, and thus not need a 'fat pension'?
Europe's problems can be summed up by Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Which is the next part:
> The older people I talk to show no concern about Europe's economic future, they're always dismissive about the problems Europe faces. They're stuck in the 70's, 80's or 90's it seems.
As an 'older' person in the UK, I've always been 'concerned' about the economic future of the continent, but we've elected increasingly incompetent politicians. When you get older you'll have the same opinions. Politics has gone from being a job trying to manage the country, to being an all expenses paid job with little risk other than re-election, and little responsibility because everything is 'the EU', or a quango (quasi-governmental organization - basically still the Government but not really sackable either).
Consider the UK - ARM was 'ours'. Could you imagine the US allowing it to be sold off to a foreign country? Well, you can guess what ukgov did.
Sabre Engines wanted a tiny amount of Government funding, who said no, so they closed and sold off some incredibly useful tech.
Maggie Thatcher sold off, and perhaps had to sell off, public utilities such as water, with little extra thought as to 'what happens next'. Well, that's 'gets bought out by foreign companies and channels profit abroad instead of reinvesting'.
Then there's the very European union-centric industries that often shoot themselves in the foot and ruin entire industries (UK car manufacturing spent more time on strike in the 1970s than building cars and can you guess what happened).
Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline
#55I'm European. I think Europe’s main problem is that its leaders and citizens are more concerned with how to distribute wealth than with creating it. In many countries, much more importance is placed on pensions than on the education of the younger generations. Krugman’s analysis may well be accurate, but the problem is that China is now beginning to assert itself in sectors where Europe used to be strong (manufacturi…
Standards are relative. Given most parts of the world have developed and as you mentioned China, Europe is now behind.
Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
You might want to look up the value of those "fat pensions" - a lot of them are substantially less than US Social Security. e.g. in Ireland, the state contributory pension (aka what you paid egregious social security taxes for) maxes out at about $18,000 per year. The equivalent pension from US Social Security is about $45,000.
This depends on the country. Austria is doing quite well here. Why are there so many homeless people in the USA? If your assumption were to work, it would not be the case. You are simply making an incomplete analysis here. See: https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewbiggs/2019/03/15/u-s-reti... It is from 2019, but things are still somewhat similar today.
> Why are there so many homeless people in the USA? If your assumption were to work, it would not be the case.
Are you somehow assuming homeless people are all old retired people eligible for pensions? I literally cannot follow your logic here in any way no matter how much I try.
Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most of Europe doesn't need air conditioning? By what measures/what large countries don't have any need there?
Poland, Germany, Switzerland, Benelux, the Nordics, Baltics, most of Central Europe don't have a need for AC. It might make life more comfortable during some days of heatwaves but it's definitely not a need to survive. Southern Europe has experienced more scorching heat the past 1-2 decades and AC is going to become a necessity given the trend of climate warming but it's not Arizona. Also I think people aren't aware…
> It might make life more comfortable during some days of heatwaves but it's definitely not a need to survive.
Well I don't know , I lived 4 years in the Netherlands in one of those apartments that have huge windows on every room. During the summer some days got closed to 37-38c and the sun sets at what , 11PM ? I was pretty scared our newborn might die - I put a fan right on her of course but I'm not sure this setup is OK at all.
Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Air conditioning is not needed in most of Europe, no idea why that would be a measurement of economic advancement. Krugman presented arguments with data, it'd be nice to see your data that counters Krugman's argument, not a whole different set of measurements that you are defining as the basis of comparison. It's just a strawman with makeup.
>Air conditioning is not needed in most of Europe Uhh... https://imgur.com/a/MTTMKDr
So you are saying AC is a need in the Netherlands for the odd week of heatwaves in a year?
Installing thousands to millions of AC compressors, piping, having the grid ready for the spike in consumption when all these ACs turn on, etc. is a necessity that needs to happen because The Hague is reaching 30C for 3 days in the next week?
Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline
#59As someone who lives in Europe, my impression is that the continent's first priority is how to keep paying the fat pensions it pays to its retired class, the second priority is how to keep paying the pensions followed by a distant third about how to keep paying the pensions. For me it's remarkable how the continent lives looking at the past and not at the future. The older people I talk to show no concern about Europ…
IMHO, we do want retirement (it is essential that past a certain age, you are not forced to work anymore - at least because you are too tired to work, at best so you can enjoy life full time as you see fit - retired people also babysit and run a lot of important stuff thanks to their free time, so they still work but outside wage labor in a way - so much so that many things would break if they didn't).
This being established, retired people obviously need money to live. You have basically two existing systems for this:
1. You make the working class pay for currently retired people
2. You make each people put money aside for later
The first choice is a collective solution to a collective problem, and also provides guarantees.
The second choice is liable to economical crises, mistakes and is an individualistic solution to a collective problem. The risk is having people who don't have any money and who are forced to work at the end of their life (if they can still find a position and are still healthy enough for this).
Of course, 1 is not perfect: there are laws defining the minimum amount of work you need to do in your like to have a good pension. If you don't work "enough" in your life, no good retirement for you. But that's a problem both options have.
It's unclear what benefit that second solution brings to the table, in both cases there's some amount of money that needs to be set aside for stuff to work. Only, in the first solution, that's safely managed for you, you pretty much don't have to worry about it.
Pensions don't seem that fat as well.
As someone currently working, I'll take the "Europe pays the pensions" aka "We, the working class, pay the pensions", aka the first option, any day. I'm happy to pay for the retirement of my retired fellows.
I would worry more about the ultra-riches stealing money from everyone and digging the inequality gap.
Re: Challenging the Narrative of European Decline
#60Krugman so badly wants this to be true. But handwaving away massive difference in IT innovation and in practical data like housing size and vastly greater American consumption does not make it true. Just 20% of European homes even have air conditioning. European industrial energy costs are more than 2x the U.S. Don't ignore the data. Europe is behind and falling behind at an ever-faster clip. And the strategic issues…
> in practical data like housing size
Because oftentimes towns and cities were not build from the ground up in a completely new continent, and most of all, are made of bricks or cement, not wood.
> Just 20% of European homes even have air conditioning.
And half of the percentage of obese population so draw your conclusions.