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Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

theguardian.com

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Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#51

Post by hyperman1 »

Belgian view here. Flanders is slowly getting the Dutch cycling culture. E-bikes are forbidden from assisting above 25 km/h. You can go faster, but you will be providing the power yourself.

Something changed on the biking paths when e-bikes became the norm. Average speed went from 15 km/h to 25 km/h. This, combined with the heavyer weight of these bikes, created new dangers. A big ebike bike hitting a pedestrian routinely throws the pedestrian in the hospital and with life long damage. The fat bikes, some esteps and the food delivery people are worse. They tend to drive asocial, and are commonly illegally modified for higher speeds. The law is behind, and stupid politicians make it worse by stopping the police checking the bikes.

Meanwhile, bike paths are a lot busier, and if near pedestrians, things are getting dangerous by default. I've decided for myself to limit my speed to 20 km/h in the city centers or at schools, and commonly go even lower. 25 is only for the ebike 'highways' next to secondary roads.

I am pro stricter regulation and follow-up for my ebike. Belgium famously only implemented laws against drunk driving after an idiot killed a whole class at once. Let's not wait for an ebike equivalent. Better to do this calmly and thoughtfully now.

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#52

Post by 4gotunameagain »

reacharavindh wrote: post #13
4gotunameagain wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason is that the fat bikes are widely popular with young delinquents, typically of the immigrant kind. They have the absolute worst reputation around Amsterdam.

You could’ve said what you said except the “immigrant kind” bit. I see enough Dutch assholes on fat bikes just as well. No need to be xenophobic here.

There is zero phobia involved, just facts. I imagine you count second generation immigrants as Dutch assholes ?

And don't get me wrong, I am not a huge fan of Dutch people. But I am even less of a fan of macho Moroccan kids.

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#53

Post by ricardobeat »

orbital-decay wrote: post #31
ricardobeat wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ordinary fatbikes aren't fast Most fatbikes have a much more powerful motor than a regular e-bike, and can be used without pedaling at all. They are listed as 250W, but it's actually a software-limited 750W motor. Local vendors provide unlock instructions along with the bike. Instead of the 25km/h legal limit, they can go 40-50km/h: https://v8fatbike.com/how-to-unlock-ouxi-v8-speed-limit/ It's just a motorcycle in…

I mean ordinary as non-electric. I know what an electric fatbike can do of course. The article makes it ambiguous as it's talking about the common limit for all cyclists.

Ah, there is no such a thing in Amsterdam (you might be thinking of MTB bikes with fat tires?). They’re all electric.

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#54

Post by tim333 »

12 mph is an odd speed to choose given legal e-bikes in Europe are limited to 15.5 mph for electrical assist. Might as well either make it 15.5 mph if the road is open or say something like 5 mph if it's a pedestrian zone.

By the way with 5 mph you wouldn't enforce it accurately as there are no speedos or speed cameras for bikes but it makes it clear if you are going 15 mph you are breaking it. That's what the have for the shared walk in Regent's Park for example.

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#55

Post by lifestyleguru »

hyperman1 wrote: post #51

Belgian view here. Flanders is slowly getting the Dutch cycling culture. E-bikes are forbidden from assisting above 25 km/h. You can go faster, but you will be providing the power yourself. Something changed on the biking paths when e-bikes became the norm. Average speed went from 15 km/h to 25 km/h. This, combined with the heavyer weight of these bikes, created new dangers. A big ebike bike hitting a pedestrian rout…

Yes electric vehicles completely changed the dynamics on bike lanes and pedestrian sidewalks (they drive on sidewalks in many European cities!). The kinetic energy is order of magnitude larger.

10-15 years ago police was stopping me and telling to get off the bicycle while I was driving bicycle carefully 4-5kmh on a pedestrian sidewalk in some major European cities. Now we have >15kg vehicles manoeuvring at >20kmh between pedestrians. The more east and south of Europe, the worse it is.

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#56

Post by lifestyleguru »

ricardobeat wrote: post #53
orbital-decay wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean ordinary as non-electric. I know what an electric fatbike can do of course. The article makes it ambiguous as it's talking about the common limit for all cyclists.

Ah, there is no such a thing in Amsterdam (you might be thinking of MTB bikes with fat tires?). They’re all electric.

> MTB bikes with fat tires

These are undrivable as a city commute, not to mention the stealing risk as they're usually expensive. I knew some people who attempted and gave up after few weeks.

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#57

Post by david-gpu »

lifestyleguru wrote: post #50
david-gpu wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A pedal-assist e-bike with a 500 Watt motor and an easily bypassed speed governor looks like a bicycle, it is pedaled like a bicycle, and yet it is unsuitable for a bicycle lane or a path shared with pedestrians.

What's even the point of pedal-assisted bicycles, other than gaming the system and exploiting some legal quirks? Neither they are fast, powerful, or have reasonable range, yet are already too heavy to pedal only.

They are popular for cargo bikes; picture a parent with a couple of kids, or a big grocery run. They are also a great way of commuting without having to worry about being sweaty when you arrive, if you have a long commute. Lastly, they are great for people who are getting back in shape or starting to suffer the effects of aging. They are great all around.

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#58

Post by graemep »

apothegm wrote: post #46
graemep wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that there are effective mechanisms for punishing irresponsible drivers (and motor cyclists), but none (at least here in the UK) for punishing irresponsible cyclists. The other problem is that cyclists often share space with pedestrians. I see cyclists on the pavement all the time (mostly illegally - and without consequences), I never see a car driving on the pavement (some park on the pavement, which…

> The other problem is that cyclists often share space with pedestrians The solution to this is better cycling infrastructure to separate them, not making cycling less useful by setting ridiculously low speed limits.

Proper separate infrastructure (i.e. not just painting a dividing line on the pavement as happens around here) is expensive and requires a lot of space. It is not always practicable, and even where it is the money would often be better spend elsewhere - e.g. on public transport.

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#59

Post by warmedcookie »

rcxdude wrote: post #43
aix1 wrote: post #3

I find it mind blowing that ~42% of all cycling deaths are men aged 70+. It obviously confounds fragility with participation but, still, it must mean that people continue to use bikes -- I'm guessing increasingly e-bikes -- well into their old age. (42% is 118/281 in the report.)

I wonder how many of those are just heart attacks triggered by the exertion. A member of my family died that way (though they were not that old, and were relatively fit)

Another N=1 here, a family friend in their late 60s died of a heart attack while biking.

Re: Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

#60

Post by globular-toast »

ricardobeat wrote: post #21
globular-toast wrote: post #8

12mph seems very slow, but I suppose you can still cycle in the carriageway if you're a decent cyclist? Really we need to ban motorised vehicles that go above 12mph. They are not bicycles and should not be in cycleways. I feel there is a big difference between someone who is able to pedal at higher speeds and someone who is just using a motor vehicle.

Cycling on the road is only allowed where there are no bike lanes, which is very rare.

That's insane then. 12mph is barely faster than running speed. The world record marathon speed is faster than that!
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