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macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

phoronix.com

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Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#51

Post by m-s-y »

tstenner wrote: post #22
theshrike79 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe this, the fight should be against PlayStation and Xbox. They’re 100% commodity hardware and fully locked down from any user freedom. Weirdly everyone focuses on Apple with all their might instead of gaming consoles.

Because gaming consoles are for a very specific purpose (and sold as such – the ruling against Sony for blocking Linux on the PS3 only happened because they advertised Linux compatibility) and Macs are general purpose computers

Macs are special purpose hardware for running macOS. A PC you build from custom components in your office is a general purpose machine. The gaming console example by oc is quite apt.

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#52

Post by Rohansi »

theshrike79 wrote: post #15
Teever wrote: post #6

I wish the EU would regulate this kind of stuff. A consumer shouldn't be restricted from installing their own OS on a device that they bought, be it a smartphone, tablet, laptop, desktop, or server. A company the size of Apple should also be required to release proper documentation that enables the porting of operating systems to these kinds of devices. The reverse engineering work that the Asahi team did is remarkab…

If you believe this, the fight should be against PlayStation and Xbox. They’re 100% commodity hardware and fully locked down from any user freedom. Weirdly everyone focuses on Apple with all their might instead of gaming consoles.

They are actually not commodity hardware. The PlayStation and Xbox CPU/GPU is custom built for the console. Try finding a CPU that can use GDDR RAM!

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#53

Post by nomel »

bigyabai wrote: post #41
dhosek wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, your “us” is not very big compared to your “not us.” I like Linux as a server OS (and would pick it over Windows or MacOS for that any day of the week that ends in y), but as a desktop OS it’s just more work than I care to exert (in fact, Windows also exceeds my tolerance for fiddliness in a desktop OS). My general preference is for “you don’t have to” over “you can” as much as possible which is th…

macOS and Windows are both such a chore for development, though. WSL was the closest I got to an "it just works" dev environment, but it exposes just how bad native toolchains like Cygwin and git bash are. macOS is hardly any better, and once you manage to install all of the GNU utilities it just feels like a poorly-supported Linux distro. It's a bunch of wasted effort to imitate a fraction of Linux's power. So what…

> it just feels like a poorly-supported Linux distro.

That's because it's Unix, not Linux.

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#54

Post by nomel »

Rohansi wrote: post #52
theshrike79 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe this, the fight should be against PlayStation and Xbox. They’re 100% commodity hardware and fully locked down from any user freedom. Weirdly everyone focuses on Apple with all their might instead of gaming consoles.

They are actually not commodity hardware. The PlayStation and Xbox CPU/GPU is custom built for the console. Try finding a CPU that can use GDDR RAM!

Wouldn't that be the same argument for Apple hardware?

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#55

Post by Rohansi »

charcircuit wrote: post #40
tstenner wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because gaming consoles are for a very specific purpose (and sold as such – the ruling against Sony for blocking Linux on the PS3 only happened because they advertised Linux compatibility) and Macs are general purpose computers

Macs are specialized in running macOS and its app ecosystem and integrating with other Apple devices. Apple don't advertise Linux compatibility.

So what you're saying is it would be acceptable for Microsoft and PC manufacturers to lock down their hardware to running Windows only? Most ship with Windows so why not?

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#56

Post by zamadatix »

zitterbewegung wrote: post #44

I’m sorry but some of the comments are out of touch. Apple devices do not have any intent of supporting separate OSes . Asahi supports M1 to M2. I can see this as a PSA to not install a beta but I am confused who would install both Akashi and macOS 27 beta at the same time when you could run the beta in a VM for development ? Others have said that this has been a fix that will happen soon.

There is clear intent, albeit not as good as the Boot Camp days. One doesn't just accidentally the Boot Policy subsystem to enable doing so every step of the way as it is. It has even been remarked as much by an Apple dev:

https://x.com/XenoKovah/status/1339914716454526979

> I purposely designed a mechanism so that M1 Macs would retain the capability to boot completely arbitrary code instead of XNU if users wanted. But you have to 1) reboot to recoveryOS with a physical power button press and 2) put in your SEP-backed credentials.

> The challenge to running arbitrary code of course, as @marcan42 noted in his crowdfunding effort to getting linux on the M1, is that the SOC is undocumented, so you still have to reuse bits of XNU and/or reverse engineer a bunch of stuff.

> As one senior architect said "the contract is that there is no contract". So that Apple can change things to suit its own needs, not others', to build the best macOS experience, which is what most customers (besides y'all who follow me) are there for.

12.1 also added support for raw image boot, which was seemingly for, and has only been relevant to, making booting Asahi Linux easier. Discussion at the time https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29591578 and an archive of the tweet's content below:

> Looks like Apple changed the requirements for Mach-O kernel files in 12.1, breaking our existing installation process... and they also added a raw image mode that will never break again and doesn't require Mach-Os. And people said they wouldn't help. This is intended for us.

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#57

Post by rustcleaner »

tstenner wrote: post #22
theshrike79 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe this, the fight should be against PlayStation and Xbox. They’re 100% commodity hardware and fully locked down from any user freedom. Weirdly everyone focuses on Apple with all their might instead of gaming consoles.

Because gaming consoles are for a very specific purpose (and sold as such – the ruling against Sony for blocking Linux on the PS3 only happened because they advertised Linux compatibility) and Macs are general purpose computers

No Universal Machine inside any consumer product should "be for a very specific purpose," where it is locked down to prevent the consumer-owner from making software or firmware modifications to it. This goes for pacemakers, automobiles, microwave ovens, MRI machines, and even Intel IME or the little microcontroller on your NVME drive. If I were elected Benevolent Dictator For Life of the United States, I would immediately withdraw us from WIPO, strike down the DMCA, and implement a 100%+ sales tax on all "finished products" for sale which had even just one such Universal Machine in it locked down as described, AND mandate a minimum of 25 years full warranty and support on such products with forced 100% buy-back for failure to support or patch or open. We must relegate today's form of 'proprietary' to a rental/lease-only model and quit calling it 'ownership'.

We must demand hardware which strongly adheres to the GNU/FSF ethos or it must be rejected society-wide (or made too expensive for the average normie to afford, effectively killing its market). Universal Machines are to free humanity, not limit or enslave us! THIS is why I don't buy Apple and hold my nose buying x86 (Qubes OS) and Google Pixels (GrapheneOS); if I could afford Raptor Engineering's TALOS II, I would own only that!

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#59

Post by rustcleaner »

Rohansi wrote: post #55
charcircuit wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macs are specialized in running macOS and its app ecosystem and integrating with other Apple devices. Apple don't advertise Linux compatibility.

So what you're saying is it would be acceptable for Microsoft and PC manufacturers to lock down their hardware to running Windows only? Most ship with Windows so why not?

It would not be acceptable, and it is the duty of ethical whitehat hackers to break such digital locks, flip the bird to Congress and the WIPO's DMCA, and free humanity. It would be ethical to form militias and raid federal prisons to free whitehat victims caught up by the state for it. Liberty is not free.

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#60

Post by matthewfcarlson »

Rohansi wrote: post #55
charcircuit wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macs are specialized in running macOS and its app ecosystem and integrating with other Apple devices. Apple don't advertise Linux compatibility.

So what you're saying is it would be acceptable for Microsoft and PC manufacturers to lock down their hardware to running Windows only? Most ship with Windows so why not?

Yes? That's what the law currently allows. If we want to make a law that says companies are required to let end users install _any_ software they want onto any device they legally own, that encompasses almost the entire consumer product ecosystem. It is becomes hard to determine what is "general purpose" and what happens if Acer says "this machine runs windows specifically and isn't general purpose?" or they say "you no longer own this machine, you are licensing the hardware from us?"
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