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U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

science.org

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Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#51

Post by jorblumesea »

epistasis wrote: post #18
BeetleB wrote: post #2

This could be understandable if some rationale was provided, but it's worse than that: > Neither agency has publicly issued new formal guidance describing these requirements. Instead, officials are informing grantees individually, leaving researchers confused and concerned. They've not even made it official. They're just randomly flagging.

This is a very common thing for corrupt governments. No rules are clear, so that those at the top can dictate whatever they want whenever they want. Which means that the only safe route is to always be on very very good terms with leadership. Very sad to see the US fall away from the rule of law, into kleptocracy. See also the way that grants are now being distributed at NCI and NSF. Only very large grants for many m…

The US is trending towards a Russian style oligarchy and these latest moves are just one of a wider pattern of trying to suppress academia, freedom of speech, personal freedoms.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#52

Post by epistasis »

gwerbin wrote: post #50
epistasis wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their fortunes are already built. They have shifted into defensive posture. They don't care about enabling more people to do discovery, that actually puts their position at great risk of disruption. What they want is to have very little innovation, and be able to capture the innovation that squeaks through.

I don't think it's true that they want little innovation. This is a political move. It's a setup for an environment where only politically approved research can happen. So the innovation machine eventually restarts, but without all the side effects of things like unbiased public policy research and social justice movements that are politically misaligned with the ultimate goal of corporate autocracy presiding over te…

Agreed, that's a better way to phrase my own thoughts than I was able to express.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#53

Post by mindslight »

mothballed wrote: post #44
pianoben wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right! Naturally, our Congress is full of technical and administrative expertise and totally has the time, patience, and will to cleanly and carefully craft the wide body of regulation we've grown to require for a smooth and healthy and productive society. No reason for those awful technocrats to usurp such authority when we've got a capable and knowledgable legislative branch capable of doing the work just as well.

Don't worry, we're going to enjoy the fruits of your thought process real well and good -- the very last guy left in the House with any constitutional focus just got blasted out with the most expensive outside funding campaign against a rep in the entire history of the USA. It looks like the bureaucratic state is just getting on its next level roll, so enjoy the ride. A few of you may even realize in the coming years…

I've been where you are. In your coming years you will realize that the bureaucracy had at least brought us stability, prosperity, and a modicum of protection against abuse from big business, the rough edges for small businesses and individuals near the edge of the law notwithstanding. Characterizing Massie's loss as an aspect of that bureaucracy is a mistake - Trumpism is a repudiation of the bureaucracy in favor of autocracy, while the all of the authoritarianism sticks around (or even grows!). Expect those rough edges to become much more arbitrary and capricious. And no, accelerationism or "I told you so" won't save you.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#54

Post by somenameforme »

BeetleB wrote: post #2

This could be understandable if some rationale was provided, but it's worse than that: > Neither agency has publicly issued new formal guidance describing these requirements. Instead, officials are informing grantees individually, leaving researchers confused and concerned. They've not even made it official. They're just randomly flagging.

The article mentions, oddly enough at literally the very bottom, that one of the main laws being used is the 'Wolf Amendment' [1], passed in 2011. It's what prevented Chinese from working on the ISS and arguably is why China now has its own space station. It's an extremely dumb law that's been passed and reauthorized repeatedly by every single administration and Congress since Obama who it was passed under.

Just quoting Wiki since it's quite succinct and accurate on this: "[The Wolf Amendment] prohibits the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) from using government funds to engage in direct, bilateral cooperation with the Chinese government and China-affiliated organizations from its activities without explicit authorization from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Congress."

For another consequence of this law, when China relatively recently carried out a sample return from the Moon, they sought to share the resultant rocks/material with countries worldwide, much like NASA did in the 60s. Except Americans couldn't accept them, at least not without jumping through a million hoops first, due to this law. It's one of the ever more frequent 'I'm going to punch myself in the face because I don't like you' acts by governments.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Amendment

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#55

Post by bilbo0s »

jolmg wrote: post #5
mnky9800n wrote: post #3

I wonder when the trump administration will ever decide if it wants to Be isolationist or global imperialist.

They're not mutually exclusive

This.

The question is what serves their interests at the time? Whatever serves their interests at a given time, well, that’s what they believe at that time. That will have no bearing on what they believe in the future.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#56

Post by ceejayoz »

pianoben wrote: post #43
mothballed wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NCI and NSF recipients getting a taste of what EPA, DEA and ATF was doing to the plebs all along with random "interpretations" and bad-faith presentations of them to judge and jury. Maybe that whole "the academics and bureaucrats are so smart we totally need to cede power from congress to the executive" wasn't such a bright idea after all. Of course, it's totally lost on the academic-bureaucratic class that the anti-…

Right! Naturally, our Congress is full of technical and administrative expertise and totally has the time, patience, and will to cleanly and carefully craft the wide body of regulation we've grown to require for a smooth and healthy and productive society. No reason for those awful technocrats to usurp such authority when we've got a capable and knowledgable legislative branch capable of doing the work just as well.

> Naturally, our Congress is full of technical and administrative expertise…

Congress knew of that issue; for decades, Congress has delegated the nitty gritty to regulatory agencies, who employ said experts.

SCOTUS, on the other hand, are the idiots you seek. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loper_Bright_Enterprises_v._Ra...

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#57

Post by yread »

petcat wrote: post #13

The article says that these restrictions on research with a "foreign component" have been in place since at least 2003 but have only recently been clarified to include the researchers themselves. It's actually more surprising to me that NIH and NASA research co-authored by non-Americans was supposedly not requiring scrutiny under the "foreign component" rules before this.

I heard NIH grantees had to always jump through extra hoops when hiring foreign companies or purchasing foreign products

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#58

Post by pdonis »

pianoben wrote: post #43
mothballed wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NCI and NSF recipients getting a taste of what EPA, DEA and ATF was doing to the plebs all along with random "interpretations" and bad-faith presentations of them to judge and jury. Maybe that whole "the academics and bureaucrats are so smart we totally need to cede power from congress to the executive" wasn't such a bright idea after all. Of course, it's totally lost on the academic-bureaucratic class that the anti-…

Right! Naturally, our Congress is full of technical and administrative expertise and totally has the time, patience, and will to cleanly and carefully craft the wide body of regulation we've grown to require for a smooth and healthy and productive society. No reason for those awful technocrats to usurp such authority when we've got a capable and knowledgable legislative branch capable of doing the work just as well.

> the wide body of regulation we've grown to require for a smooth and healthy and productive society.

If you actually believe this is true, I have some sad news for you. Does the term "regulatory capture" mean anything to you?

> those awful technocrats

If you actually believe the "technocrats" have the knowledge required to craft regulations that actually are a net benefit, again, I have some sad news for you.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#59

Post by b00ty4breakfast »

I can't help but think that there is a deliberate effort to remove the US from it's position in the global geopolitical arena. And not merely as a by-product of policy decisions but specifically to damage the American reputation.

Re: U.S. researchers face new restrictions on publishing with foreign collaborators

#60

Post by BeetleB »

gwbas1c wrote: post #25

This happens when a country is preparing to go to war. It's what happened with nuclear research around the start of the Manhattan project.

So, medical research (NIH grants) is in preparation for going to war? Is the US planning on using biological agents?
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