Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Don't answer the first question

lalitm.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–57 of 57 posts

Re: Don't answer the first question

#51

Post by hamdingers »

mathisfun123 wrote: post #50
hamdingers wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then solve the problem yourself? Why are you asking someone who knows less than you? We need a word for the inverse of being XY'd for when someone asks an XY question but is too proud to accept there's a better alternative to X

> Then solve the problem yourself? Why are you asking someone who knows less than you? you seem to completely misunderstand XY: it's not someone giving you the right solution to your problem which you aren't capable of arriving at yourself. it's someone telling you the problem you're having isn't the one you should be solving. it happens very frequently that some arrogant person is 100% certain X problem isn't possib…

You are right, we are operating on different definitions of the XY problem. The definition I prefer is the one described here: https://xyproblem.info/

Re: Don't answer the first question

#52

Post by tzs »

dematz wrote: post #21

Probably a lot of comments will bounce off the title to discuss the XY problem in general, and especially stackoverflow. The article does claim to go further than XY though! "Diagnosing the ask" and "When they’re missing the philosophy" seem to me like traditional XY problem answers - the user doesn't know what the right question is, we need to step back to guide them. "When the product needs to change" on the other…

In the particular case of SO what is annoying is that even if the person who posed the X question really did actually have a Y problem and responders figured that out and solved Y, that doesn't help people who really have an X problem who come there later.

When people who really have an X problem find that every SO answer to X questions is an XY answer and try to ask a new X question clearly stating that they have looked at all those other questions and none of them answer X...their question gets quickly closed as a duplicate by the idiots that moderate SO.

Re: Don't answer the first question

#53

Post by otterley »

paultopia wrote: post #41
otterley wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, the ones who most fervently believe they have such “clues” are often the same ones who lack them. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve encountered engineers who become indignant when someone tries to redirect them to safe, scalable, and operable ways to solve problems. What they often want is to have the problem solved their way because it would be less work for them or otherwise advance their…

I mean, yeah, if you’re selling someone a product it’s pretty fair for them to expect, or at least hope, that it will reduce their workload and advance their personal interests…

There’s no product being sold here. The person is trying to solve some self-described problem on his own.

Re: Don't answer the first question

#54

Post by otterley »

BeetleB wrote: post #38
otterley wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it depends on the individual and the culture. In a strong culture, engineers don’t their egos get in the way of healthy conversations and will be capable of defending their position against probing questions without it upsetting them.

> In a strong culture, engineers don’t their egos get in the way of healthy conversations and will be capable of defending their position against probing questions without it upsetting them. Everything is great when you don't have constraints. If I, however, have to spend 30-60 minutes justifying something to you every time I come to you, then you definitely are the problem. Using the wrong tool to solve a problem is…

> If I, however, have to spend 30-60 minutes justifying something to you every time I come to you, then you definitely are the problem

That might be true if you’re skilled in whatever the particular subject matter is.

But what if you’re not? Have you ever had a colleague that kept trying to solve problems the wrong way? Such people do exist.

I don’t personally withhold answers, but when I suspect something is amiss, I ask probing questions in order to better understand the deeper problem underlying the question. Then I collaborate on a better answer, if one exists, with my colleague.

Re: Don't answer the first question

#55

Post by atoav »

tzs wrote: post #52
dematz wrote: post #21

Probably a lot of comments will bounce off the title to discuss the XY problem in general, and especially stackoverflow. The article does claim to go further than XY though! "Diagnosing the ask" and "When they’re missing the philosophy" seem to me like traditional XY problem answers - the user doesn't know what the right question is, we need to step back to guide them. "When the product needs to change" on the other…

In the particular case of SO what is annoying is that even if the person who posed the X question really did actually have a Y problem and responders figured that out and solved Y, that doesn't help people who really have an X problem who come there later. When people who really have an X problem find that every SO answer to X questions is an XY answer and try to ask a new X question clearly stating that they have lo…

The solution to this type of problem is typically escalation.

I have worked in IT support and the problem is that the vast majority are problems of users who won't read even the most basic instruction, error message or hint. That means two things (1) users suck at describing their problems ("My account does not work" which could mean anything from a full network fail to them having forgotten their password) and (2) actual technical problems where something really is the fault of the tech are the minority of cases.

This means when someone says their account doesn't work that could mean anything from the utterly absurd like their laptop being broken, over hardware failure (broken patch cable), all the way to actual technical problems like their email address containing an umlaut and being parsed wrong, and it wasn't a problem till the last update. Since the dumber reasons are much more common your issue will stay at the dumb level until you convinced someone it needs an actual technician to look at. And the best way to skip to that level quickly is to do your homework, make sure the rest of the reasons aren't it and communicate clearly what is working and where things fail and how that failure presents itself. Basically by not coming across as one of the dumb reasons as much as you can.

In my whole IT support time I have probably received one well-written request.

Re: Don't answer the first question

#56

Post by locknitpicker »

ncallaway wrote: post #46
locknitpicker wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This feels much less condescending to me than traditional XY where it's just tech support for a dumb user. Instead now figuring out questions from enough users helps direct new features. I don't really agree. I think the blog post tries to put together a case that a textbook XY problem is not a XY problem because they explore a way to force Y onto all users seeking X. It's still condescending to accuse users of bei…

I don't think that's it at all. If a user says: "how do I do X in your product", I think a response of "Hey, there's not a great way to do X right now. We're thinking about the best way to make that work in the product though, and want to better understand what you're trying to do and why you need to do X. Would you mind spending 30-45 minutes talking to us about your specific needs in exchange for a $XX incentive?"…

> I don't think that's it at all.

Quoted from the blog post:

> *Instead, the confusion that produced the wrong question is itself an opening, and the conversation it sparks is valuable to both sides. The user walks away with a better mental model of the tool. I walk away with a clearer picture of where the product confuses people.*

The blog post clearly frames the user as a confused individual who, by asking for X, has a bad mental model and requires guidance to be directed towards Y.

It's not only terribly condescending, it also spins the problem as an issue caused by ignorant and clueless users.

And it's a textbook example of a XY problem.

Re: Don't answer the first question

#57

Post by sceptic123 »

mathisfun123 wrote: post #43
pixl97 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are sure, you're generally not going to answer "Yea, I'm sure", you'll answer "Yea, I'm sure because A, B, C" In fact, if you're asking on a forum about how to solve X, be sure to add "because A, B, C" or you're just wasting everyone else's fucking time. The more details you put up front, the more apt you're going to get the answer you're looking for in the first place instead of wasting everyone elses time of…

> you're just wasting everyone else's fucking time you sure you're not the one wasting people's time by demanding they convince you of something you don't have any need to be convinced of - like did you know that just answering a question at face value is a completely plausible option?

In this context your question is likely a request for help, yet you're unwilling to take the time to include the relevant information in that question.

The fact you're complaining about the this, rather than modifying your own behaviour in a way that improves people's chances of helping you, seems quite extraordinary.

Post reply on HN