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50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

fortune.com

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Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#51

Post by jedberg »

nvitas wrote: post #17

just as a thought experiment, say you're an entrepreneur, how would you solve this problem? whether it AI, Data Centers, EVs...I'm seeing this problem more and more, we need more energy/power. I'm curious to see what others think are possible viable solutions.

This isn't a problem that can be solved by a clever entrepreneur. This is what government is for. When you have a shared resource that everyone needs, government is the best option for making sure its distribution is fair.

We already know how to solve this: make transmission owned by the government, make generation free-market. Cities do this already. The city of Santa Clara owns all the transmission, and then buys power on the open market along with generating themselves.

The result is their power costs 1/2 as much as all the surrounding cities that have PG&E.

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#53

Post by jedberg »

outside2344 wrote: post #23

It will be hilarious if Google built a data center in Nevada only to run Incline Village out of power (where Sergey Brin pretends to live as a tax dodge).

> where Sergey Brin pretends to live as a tax dodge

It's not just Brin who lives there. The median wealth of that town is at least 10x everywhere around it. It's the closest city in Nevada to the Bay Area. Back before California changed the law, if you had stock options you earned in CA and then moved to NV before you sold them, you could avoid paying income tax. Or if you sold your company.

I know multiple people who moved to Incline right before vesting or selling. They would come back to the Bay Area each weekend to see their wife and kids and work remotely during the week. As long as they spent more than 1/2 their time in NV they didn't have to pay CA tax.

CA has since closed that loophole -- if you earn it in CA they will come for the tax even if you live in another state when you sell it. But for the last 20+ years, it was a tax strategy that a lot of people used.

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#54

Post by shigawire »

mikestew wrote: post #26
colechristensen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, not really. Few years ago everybody was talking about the inadequacies of our aging electricity distribution infrastructure and how it was a shame it wasn't being fixed and the risks it entails. Now folks are wailing about the terrible AI come for our electricity and how awful the burden of the upgrades are. When the upgrades were for solar they were good, when upgrades are for AI they're bad. It's almost like pe…

It's almost like people just want to complain about anything associated with something they don't like regardless of relevance. I've noticed that we don't hear a lot about the EV boogyman taking down our electric grid now that AI has come to town.

I'd say the people complaining about AI likely see EVs as having some utility. While AI may have some utility, the amount of resources invested seems to make it more of a ponzi scheme waiting to pop.

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#55

Post by ToucanLoucan »

colechristensen wrote: post #21
freediddy wrote: post #14

This is like the movie Chinatown, where people were fighting over water, but now it's all about electricity. It sounds like Lake Tahoe residents kicked the can down the road and didn't care about electricity for so long that now they have to pay the piper. I think it's entire just that they have to bear the costs of their own electricity.

Eh, not really. Few years ago everybody was talking about the inadequacies of our aging electricity distribution infrastructure and how it was a shame it wasn't being fixed and the risks it entails. Now folks are wailing about the terrible AI come for our electricity and how awful the burden of the upgrades are. When the upgrades were for solar they were good, when upgrades are for AI they're bad. It's almost like pe…

> When the upgrades were for solar they were good, when upgrades are for AI they're bad.

Do you look at every issue in this 50,000 foot view with no nuance or even basic details, or is just certain ones?

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#56

Post by palmotea »

nradov wrote: post #44
Glawen wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why ? Many country have public generation without any shortages.

And do those countries have large and rapidly growing demand? A free market is the only reliable way to respond effectively to changing demand signals. Economic central planning always fails over the long term.

> And do those countries have large and rapidly growing demand? A free market is the only reliable way to respond effectively to changing demand signals. Economic central planning always fails over the long term.

It's not the only reliable way.

Also the free market has a bad habit of settling on "most profitable" (in the short-medium term) configurations by sacrificing resiliency.

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#57

Post by shigawire »

WarmWash wrote: post #19
ageitgey wrote: post #7

It's weird to read an article about how AI is ruining Lake Tahoe, with a map illustrating the problem, when the map itself has the world's most generic "100% generated by Claude" UI ever. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the article using the Claude map. It's just deeply funny somehow.

My read is People complain about AI in public, use it heavily in private, complain about datacenters in public, slam their fists about usage limits in private. In short, typical human behavior, want to have their cake and eat it too.

I'd rather the AI providers bear the cost of the externalities they inflict on the world.

If the cost to users is reasonable with that added burden I'll happily pay it. If it is not viable without passing costs on society, then they should not be in business.

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#58

Post by infecto »

jedberg wrote: post #51
nvitas wrote: post #17

just as a thought experiment, say you're an entrepreneur, how would you solve this problem? whether it AI, Data Centers, EVs...I'm seeing this problem more and more, we need more energy/power. I'm curious to see what others think are possible viable solutions.

This isn't a problem that can be solved by a clever entrepreneur. This is what government is for. When you have a shared resource that everyone needs, government is the best option for making sure its distribution is fair. We already know how to solve this: make transmission owned by the government, make generation free-market. Cities do this already. The city of Santa Clara owns all the transmission, and then buys p…

I was actually going to disagree on first glance but I absolutely agree with this.

Transmission has no business edge, you will gain the best economies of scale by having the city (or larger regional) manage it.

Free-market works on the generation side because as prices change, producers can decide to build out more capacity or innovate to gain an edge. I don’t think a single monopoly construct, like the PG&Es of the world, have incentive to innovate and properly serve the market.

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#59

Post by mikestew »

jeffbee wrote: post #9

Same content: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nearly-50-000-lake-tahoe-1709... TL;DR Libertarian separatists, who went so far as to name their utility "Liberty Utilities", organized their utility in 2009 under a temporary agreement with Nevada, which was extended twice, and now after almost two decades of failing to invest in their own generating assets they will be deprioritized by their ex-partner.

I see that a sibling comment beat me to it, but "Libertarian separatists"? They're well-organized separatists given they're spread across, what, a couple dozen states? It's quite the narrative you've spun, and it would be almost as interesting if it were true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algonquin_Power_%26_Utilities

Re: 50K Tahoe residents need power as utility eyes redirecting lines to data centers

#60

Post by SkyBelow »

mystraline wrote: post #30
vasco wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Breaking: Smartphone producers known to rely on slave labor keep doing it. Posted from my iPhone"

That isnt the slam you think it is. https://truthout.org/art/mister-gotcha/

Isn't this just a false dichotomy in web comic form? Implying that there are only two options, full participant or complete withdrawal from society, as a means of suggesting that one cannot apply morals to how one chooses to engage with society.

But in reality, there are many many ways to engage in society, some more or less ethical/moral than others, and one is free to criticize individual choices.

Even if we consider something like social media, there is still a range of choices other than fully engaging in social media and rejecting all social media. There are attempts to use it responsible, limiting and curating use to less harmful versions while attempt to get most of the benefit, while still postulating that the overall effect of the average use case of social media is harming society.

It feels a lot like saying that, since it is impossible to live a perfectly ethical/moral life, ethics and morals can be completely ignored without regard for what options one does have available to them.

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