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EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

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Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#51

Post by palata »

soco wrote: post #6
nanapipirara wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah yeah, whataboutism. I'm very happy they're taking a stance. I've seen too many messed up kids and there's no doubt the addictive design plays a big role in the problem.

I must notice that every time, but really every time, EU moves a pinky finger against tech industry, a sizeable chunk of comments here will be like the one above. I wonder, is it about a general sentiment against EU? Or a general sentiment against restricting technology? Or a general sentiment against humans? Or what?

I think it's easier and safer to complain about everything than to actually have a nuanced and informed stance.

Look at age verification: it's very easy and very safe to say "nobody sane would think that it is a good idea to force people to show their ID to every website they want to access, it will obviously leak the IDs, that is very bad!". While it is not wrong, it is manipulative: that is not the only way to implement age verification. In fact, there is technology that exists that would allow age verification in a privacy-preserving manner: some service that already have access to your ID can give you a token that proves your age, and you can then use this token to access a website. The service cannot know where you use the token, the website cannot know your ID, and they cannot collude.

So the constructive debate around age verification is this: assuming we implement it properly (i.e. in a privacy-preserving manner), is that something that we want or not? Does it solve a problem, or at least does it help?

But we cannot ever elevate the debate to that level, because nobody can't be arsed to get informed about it.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#52

Post by owebmaster »

kubb wrote: post #43
stingraycharles wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those things that don’t translate to legal reality very well, as then you have to define “what is an algorithm”. Is adding advertisements an algorithm? Is including likes an algorithm? Is automatically starting the next video after a previous one has finished an algorithm? Is infinite scroll an algorithm? Etc

This is some kind of a meme where people believe things can’t be defined in legal terms and therefore can’t be regulated. These people are usually not lawyers. Does anyone know where it’s coming from? I can certainly believe that incompetent jurisdictions have a ton of issues with people misapplying the law and using loopholes.

It probably comes from the same pockets that influences legislation

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#54

Post by criddell »

anzerarkin wrote: post #22

I don’t think this is only a kids issue. A lot of adults need this too. The addictive apps are very well designed, while most blockers are either too easy to ignore or too annoying to keep using. I built a small iOS blocker because I had the same problem. Making it strict enough to actually work without making people hate it is the main challenge.

On the radio I heard a reporter talking about things China does during school exams. Apparently all schools have exams at the same time and during that period, social media shuts down at night. I forget the exact hours (10pm - 6am maybe). I'm starting to think that would be a great policy in general for everybody.

I think they also said AI companies go offline during exam hours, but I may have got that wrong.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#55

Post by palata »

eowln wrote: post #50
palata wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sentiment that having to present our ID to use tiktok gives us the heebie-jeebies, and for good reason. So push for privacy-preserving age verification, such that you don't need to leak your ID to anyone but TikTok can still prevent kids from accessing it?

>privacy-preserving age verification No such thing.

That's my problem with the debate: people like you seem very proud to be uninformed. It exists as much as end-to-end encryption exists. It's cryptography, it's not up to debate.

But people who have no clue are very vocal about their belief that it does not exist.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#56

Post by criddell »

kgwxd wrote: post #46
anzerarkin wrote: post #22

I don’t think this is only a kids issue. A lot of adults need this too. The addictive apps are very well designed, while most blockers are either too easy to ignore or too annoying to keep using. I built a small iOS blocker because I had the same problem. Making it strict enough to actually work without making people hate it is the main challenge.

As an adult, who despises all those apps, I don't want to grant government the power to make that decision for me.

An an adult, do you also believe seat belt laws are a bad thing?

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#57

Post by biophysboy »

kubb wrote: post #43
stingraycharles wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those things that don’t translate to legal reality very well, as then you have to define “what is an algorithm”. Is adding advertisements an algorithm? Is including likes an algorithm? Is automatically starting the next video after a previous one has finished an algorithm? Is infinite scroll an algorithm? Etc

This is some kind of a meme where people believe things can’t be defined in legal terms and therefore can’t be regulated. These people are usually not lawyers. Does anyone know where it’s coming from? I can certainly believe that incompetent jurisdictions have a ton of issues with people misapplying the law and using loopholes.

Albert Hirschman wrote a great book about the rhetoric people use to stifle policy proposals 35 years ago. “It’s futile; it won’t ever work” is one common argument. It’s not a meme so much as a cynical reflexive intuition

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#58

Post by lp4v4n »

I don't agree with this. Addictive, unless we're talking about a chemical substance or something like that, is a subjective thing. At some point, books, movies, comics, etc, etc might have been considered addictive.

Social networks in general should be banned for underage people, that's the thing. And the social network itself should be liable for verifying the age its users, like a nightclub is liable for people who enter it. No bullshit operating system age verification, that's, trust me, totally intended to protect kids and not to spy on you.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#59

Post by modo_mario »

watwut wrote: post #26
soco wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must notice that every time, but really every time, EU moves a pinky finger against tech industry, a sizeable chunk of comments here will be like the one above. I wonder, is it about a general sentiment against EU? Or a general sentiment against restricting technology? Or a general sentiment against humans? Or what?

Imo, both. The more right wing people started to have aggressively anti-EU stance once Vance openly stood on the side of Orban and against EU and democracies in general. And some people see tech companies as worship worthy and trying to restrict them is kind of a blasphemy.

The Vance thing is far too recent and inconsequential across europe?

The sentiment precedes all that and mostly stems from the EU being in some ways originally lib left dominated and still being seen as facilitating non-eu migration

Regular right wing people (aka not one of the many parties potentially receiving donations) don't tend to love giant webtech companies. Especially since they feel like they're often used as a tool against them and aren't a local thing that draws nationalists either.

A focus on privacy also isn't a very left-right defined thing tho i have noticed that the most far reaching expressions of it come a bit more from the further ends of that spectrum. (you'll see some very left leaning people at fosdems privacy focused/related stands for example)

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#60

Post by bootsmann »

lp4v4n wrote: post #58

I don't agree with this. Addictive, unless we're talking about a chemical substance or something like that, is a subjective thing. At some point, books, movies, comics, etc, etc might have been considered addictive. Social networks in general should be banned for underage people, that's the thing. And the social network itself should be liable for verifying the age its users, like a nightclub is liable for people who…

The reason why it is done this way is that “social media” is much harder to delineate and also not what is generally considered harmful.
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