Airport Security Is Killing Us • Hacker News Board

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#51

Post by tadfisher » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:25 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #21

anu_gupta wrote: post #13

Tangentially - the thing that most surprised me about this article was reading that over 150,000 Americans have been murdered in less than a decade. I find that number utterly staggering. Wikipedia says that the homicide rate in the US is 4.2 per 100,000, which is more than 2.5 times the rate in Canada and 3.5 times the rate in the UK.

America has the highest murder rate of the developed world, higher even than a chunk of developing countries. My quick glace showed America at 4.2, the next developed country is Finland at 2.2, so living in America you're 1.9 times more likely to be murdered than any other developed country. Of course, the vast majority of Developed countries have a murder rate less than 1.0 per 100,000 people. http://en.wikipedia.or…

The United States is very large, and the homicide rate varies wildly between states and cities.

Where I live, Oregon, the homicide rate is 2.1 per 100,000 people, a little bit better than Finland as a whole. Hawaii is at 1.2, New Hampshire and Vermont are at 1.3, and Minnesota is at 1.4.

Contrast those with Louisiana at 11.2 per 100,000 people (!), Mississippi at 8.0, New Mexico at 7.5, and South Carolina at 6.8.

It's clear that the homicide rates in the US are aligned mostly along socio-economic and racial lines, so it doesn't make sense to compare the whole country against the more homogeneous states such as Finland, Norway, Germany, and Japan.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-...

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#52

Post by acabal » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:25 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #26

joonix wrote: post #2

I opt-out of the x-ray scanner every single time, and so should you. It really doesn't take much longer to go through the process. Show up 3 minutes earlier if you have to. You're rushing to the gate, for what? To sit there longer? Boarding with the crowds is stressful anyways. The most relaxed way to board is at the very end -- there's no more line, I just walk right into the plane, most people are seated, and just…

[deleted]

That NPR article you linked seems to say the opposite: "The government says it's OK, but scientists aren't so sure."

I personally opt out every time for the reasons in the OP: my principles. Getting the pat-down is unpleasant and I have indeed had my "junk" jabbed at by zealous TSA agents. (The sides of their hands go up your inner thigh until they encounter "resistance"--which is a nice euphemism for something much more sensitive.) You end up feeling like a common criminal. Neither of these was required just a few years ago--so saying one is better than the other isn't a good argument, because both are bad for more than a few reasons.

Whether or not you believe in scanning on a principled ground, you should also be wary of what the government--and more importantly, a private company the government has contracted--tells you is OK. The same country told veterans that Agent Orange was OK. Of course the private company that makes billions is going to tell you their product is OK. Even if you give the government the benefit of the doubt and assume they think they're telling the truth, they might have misunderstood, or not completely researched, things.

I would never trust the government to irradiate me with a technology only a few years old, in any amount. I do trust thoroughly-researched technology that time has proven--medical x-rays, air travel.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#53

Post by tptacek » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:26 PM UTC

jpxxx wrote: post #38

A quibble, because this whole fucking disgusting thing fills me with limitless rage: TSA agents do not perform 'pat-downs'. Pat-downs are very quick checks to see if any obvious weapons are being concealed on someone's body. Police will do these before putting a suspect into a police vehicle, for instance. TSA employees do what are called 'custody searches', designed to find contraband material on detainees. These ar…

No they're not. The Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld an exemption for searches in the context of airport security under the doctrine of administrative searches, where the state's legitimate interest overrides the cost (to individuals) of the search, and where no one person is singled out by the searches.

Your argument doesn't even follow logically, as all the 4th Amendment requires is that searches be "reasonable", and "reasonable" is obviously subjective. It's a right practically tailor made for adjudication by the Supreme Court.

Given that bags have been subject to search for decades prior to "pat-down" or "custody" searches, and that it's hard to think of a more invasive search than one that allows officers to rifle through your personal luggage, I don't think Constitutionality is the issue here. We should simply pass a federal law restricting the TSA's ability to electronically strip search or invasively grope passengers.

I'm just as disgusted by airport electronic strip searches as you are, but we shouldn't using sure-loser arguments against them.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#54

Post by pyre » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:27 PM UTC

aneth4 wrote: post #49

jpxxx wrote: post #38

A quibble, because this whole fucking disgusting thing fills me with limitless rage: TSA agents do not perform 'pat-downs'. Pat-downs are very quick checks to see if any obvious weapons are being concealed on someone's body. Police will do these before putting a suspect into a police vehicle, for instance. TSA employees do what are called 'custody searches', designed to find contraband material on detainees. These ar…

> Custody searches in this context are forbidden by the fourth amendment, by the way, regardless of what the TSA's legal team may claim. As is x-raying baggage and body-scans. Fourth amendment rights don't apply to the same extent when you are on private property, when there are balancing security concerns, when you enter a courthouse, when you enter a school, etc. You know the deal when you enter these places and yo…

  > when you enter a courthouse

  > you have a choice whether to enter them

Not necessarily...

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#55

Post by mdemare » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:27 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #21

anu_gupta wrote: post #13

Tangentially - the thing that most surprised me about this article was reading that over 150,000 Americans have been murdered in less than a decade. I find that number utterly staggering. Wikipedia says that the homicide rate in the US is 4.2 per 100,000, which is more than 2.5 times the rate in Canada and 3.5 times the rate in the UK.

America has the highest murder rate of the developed world, higher even than a chunk of developing countries. My quick glace showed America at 4.2, the next developed country is Finland at 2.2, so living in America you're 1.9 times more likely to be murdered than any other developed country. Of course, the vast majority of Developed countries have a murder rate less than 1.0 per 100,000 people. http://en.wikipedia.or…

True, but the murder rate within the U.S. is wildly uneven. There are nine state with a lower murder rate than Finland, while one, Lousiana, has 5x the finnish murder rate.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#56

Post by makmanalp » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:28 PM UTC

engtech wrote: post #20

anu_gupta wrote: post #13

Tangentially - the thing that most surprised me about this article was reading that over 150,000 Americans have been murdered in less than a decade. I find that number utterly staggering. Wikipedia says that the homicide rate in the US is 4.2 per 100,000, which is more than 2.5 times the rate in Canada and 3.5 times the rate in the UK.

If you find that staggering, then absolutely avoid looking at Japan homicide stats. Japan is 0.4 per 100,000. Japan has had the strictest gun control in the world for the longest time, and has a homicide rate to match. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...

I support gun control and everything, but how do you know that the low homicide rate is because of the gun control? Japan has been a model for social order (putting aside organized crime, in the sense that you lose your wallet and it gets returned to you, muggings don't happen often, etc.) for a long time.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#57

Post by philwelch » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:29 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #53

jpxxx wrote: post #38

A quibble, because this whole fucking disgusting thing fills me with limitless rage: TSA agents do not perform 'pat-downs'. Pat-downs are very quick checks to see if any obvious weapons are being concealed on someone's body. Police will do these before putting a suspect into a police vehicle, for instance. TSA employees do what are called 'custody searches', designed to find contraband material on detainees. These ar…

No they're not. The Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld an exemption for searches in the context of airport security under the doctrine of administrative searches, where the state's legitimate interest overrides the cost (to individuals) of the search, and where no one person is singled out by the searches. Your argument doesn't even follow logically, as all the 4th Amendment requires is that searches be "reasonable"…

It's also important to note that you consent to the search by choosing to travel by air in the United States.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#58

Post by gsnedders » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:31 PM UTC

I don't see why there isn't more interest in high speed rail in the US: New York and Boston/Washington DC could be less than two hours travel time apart, which though it may well be an hour slower than a flight, has a lot less overhead (no arriving two hours before departure, etc). The technology is quickly reaching the point where San Francisco to Los Angeles may be equally doable in around two hours, again an obvious gain if you have to arrive at the airport that long before departure.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#59

Post by mkr-hn » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:31 PM UTC

aneth4 wrote: post #49

jpxxx wrote: post #38

A quibble, because this whole fucking disgusting thing fills me with limitless rage: TSA agents do not perform 'pat-downs'. Pat-downs are very quick checks to see if any obvious weapons are being concealed on someone's body. Police will do these before putting a suspect into a police vehicle, for instance. TSA employees do what are called 'custody searches', designed to find contraband material on detainees. These ar…

> Custody searches in this context are forbidden by the fourth amendment, by the way, regardless of what the TSA's legal team may claim. As is x-raying baggage and body-scans. Fourth amendment rights don't apply to the same extent when you are on private property, when there are balancing security concerns, when you enter a courthouse, when you enter a school, etc. You know the deal when you enter these places and yo…

What's the point of a right if it can be violated where you most need it?

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#60

Post by lostlogin » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:31 PM UTC

swohns wrote: post #44

ry0ohki wrote: post #28

Odds of dying from fireworks: 1 in 652,046 Odds of dying from lightning strike: 1 in 134,906 Odds of being legally executed: 1 in 111,179 Odds of dying from contact with bees/wasps: 1 in 79,842 Odds of being shot: 1 in 6,609 Odds of dying from a fall 1 in 163 Odds of dying in a terrorist attack: 1 in 3,500,000 Maybe we should switch the TSA to bee patrol. (Source: http://www.nsc.org/NSC%20Picture%20Library/News/web_g…

The numbers themselves aren't the real takeaway, it's how preventable these deaths are.

Exactly, and one can conclude that the dollars spent versus lives saved makes the waste seem even greater. Converting the TSA to bee control as mentioned above would lively save more lives (to take an extreme example).