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I'm going back to writing code by hand

blog.k10s.dev

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Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#51

Post by cortesoft »

binyu wrote: post #6

> I'm rewriting k10s in Rust. Not because Rust is better but, because it's the language I can steer. I've written enough of it to feel when something's wrong before I can articulate why. That instinct is the one thing vibe-coding can't replace. The AI hands you plausible-looking code. You need a nose for when it's garbage. Isn't Golang relatively easier to read than Rust? I was under the impression that Rust is a mor…

> Isn't Golang relatively easier to read than Rust? I was under the impression that Rust is a more complex language syntactically

It sounds like the author knows Rust, and might not be as familiar with Go.

A language that you are proficient in is always going to be easier read than one you don’t, even if it is an objectively easier language to to read in general.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#52

Post by mikepurvis »

snowe2010 wrote: post #34

> The other change is simpler: I'm doing the design work myself, by hand, before any code gets written. Not a vague doc. Concrete interfaces, message types, ownership rules. That’s the hard part of coding. If you have an architecture then writing the code is dead simple. If you aren’t writing the code you aren’t going to notice when you architected an API that allows nulls but then your database doesn’t. Or that it d…

I agree with what you're saying, but I think we do have a problem right now with definitions where there's a lot of people basically getting supercharged tab completions or running a chatbot or two in a parallel pane, but still clearly reviewing everything; and on the other side of things is freaking Steve Yegge pitching a whole new editor that lets you orchestrate a dozen or more agents all vibing away on code you're apparently never going to read more than a line or two of: https://steve-yegge.medium.com/welcome-to-gas-town-4f25ee16d...

The first group are still thinking fairly deeply about design and interfaces and data structures, and are doing fairly heavy review in those areas. The second group are not, and those are the ones that I find a bit more worrisome.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#53

Post by skydhash »

snowe2010 wrote: post #34

> The other change is simpler: I'm doing the design work myself, by hand, before any code gets written. Not a vague doc. Concrete interfaces, message types, ownership rules. That’s the hard part of coding. If you have an architecture then writing the code is dead simple. If you aren’t writing the code you aren’t going to notice when you architected an API that allows nulls but then your database doesn’t. Or that it d…

And when you got familiar with the other parts, you realize that writing code is the most enjoyable one. More often than not, you’re either balancing trade offs or researching what factors yoy have missed with the previous balancing. When you get to writing code, it’s with a sigh of relief, as that means you understand the problem enough to try a possible solution.

You can skip that and go directly to writing code. But that meant you replaced a few hours of planning with a few weeks of coding.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#55

Post by RossBencina »

mikepurvis wrote: post #52
snowe2010 wrote: post #34

> The other change is simpler: I'm doing the design work myself, by hand, before any code gets written. Not a vague doc. Concrete interfaces, message types, ownership rules. That’s the hard part of coding. If you have an architecture then writing the code is dead simple. If you aren’t writing the code you aren’t going to notice when you architected an API that allows nulls but then your database doesn’t. Or that it d…

I agree with what you're saying, but I think we do have a problem right now with definitions where there's a lot of people basically getting supercharged tab completions or running a chatbot or two in a parallel pane, but still clearly reviewing everything; and on the other side of things is freaking Steve Yegge pitching a whole new editor that lets you orchestrate a dozen or more agents all vibing away on code you'r…

> The first group are still thinking fairly deeply about design and interfaces and data structures, and are doing fairly heavy review in those areas.

I can't speak for others, but I'd go further and say that LLMs allow me to go deeper on the design side. I can survey alternative data structures, brainstorm conversationally, play design golf, work out a consistent domain taxonomy and from there function, data structure and field names, draft and redraft code, and then rewrite or edit the code myself when the AI cost/benefit trade off breaks down.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#56

Post by dewey »

plastic041 wrote: post #25

Title says > back to writing code by hand But what they are doing is > doing the __design work__ myself, by hand, before any code gets written. So... Claude still is generating the code I guess? And seriously, I can't understand that they thought their vibe coded project works fine and even bought a domain for the project without ever looking at source code it generated, FOR 7 MONTHS??

I bought domains for projects minutes after the idea.

I don’t think it’s that weird to not look at the code if it’s a side project and you follow along incrementally via diffs. It’s definitely a different way of working but it’s not that crazy.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#57

Post by platevoltage »

photochemsyn wrote: post #30

Does ‘writing code by hand’ mean you’re not going to use compilers to generate assembly? Now I do feel lucky that I started learning coding about four years before the LLM revolution, but these things are really just natural language compilers, aren’t they? We’re just in that period - the 1980s, the greybeards tell me - where companies charged thousands of dollars per compiler instance, right? And now, I myself have…

So C++ doesn't count as code now.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#58

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

whattheheckheck wrote: post #31
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people talk about codebases being "incomprehensible", it's not always hyperbole. Sometimes the architecture literally cannot be broken up or understood.

I find that really hard to believe. It's not like curing cancer

[flagged]

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#59

Post by skydhash »

mikepurvis wrote: post #52
snowe2010 wrote: post #34

> The other change is simpler: I'm doing the design work myself, by hand, before any code gets written. Not a vague doc. Concrete interfaces, message types, ownership rules. That’s the hard part of coding. If you have an architecture then writing the code is dead simple. If you aren’t writing the code you aren’t going to notice when you architected an API that allows nulls but then your database doesn’t. Or that it d…

I agree with what you're saying, but I think we do have a problem right now with definitions where there's a lot of people basically getting supercharged tab completions or running a chatbot or two in a parallel pane, but still clearly reviewing everything; and on the other side of things is freaking Steve Yegge pitching a whole new editor that lets you orchestrate a dozen or more agents all vibing away on code you'r…

> The first group are still thinking fairly deeply about design and interfaces and data structures, and are doing fairly heavy review in those areas

I worry about the first group too, because interfaces and data structures are the map, not the territory. When you create a glossary, it is to compose a message, that transmit a specific idea. I find invariably that people that focus on code that much often forgot the main purpose of the program in favor of small features (the ticket). And that has accelerated with LLM tooling.

I believe most of us that are not so keen on AI tooling are always thinking about the program first, then the various parts, then the code. If you focus on a specific part, you make sure that you have well defined contracts to the orther parts that guarantees the correctness of the whole. If you need to change the contract, you change it with regard to the whole thing, not the specific part.

The issue with most LLM tools is that they’re linear. They can follow patterns well, and agents can have feedback loop that correct it. But contracts are multi dimensional forces that shapes a solution. That solution appears more like a collapsing wave function than a linear prediction.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#60

Post by viceconsole »

> Vibe-coding makes you feel like you have infinite implementation budget. You don't. You have infinite LINE budget (the AI will generate as much code as you want). But you have the same finite complexity budget as always.

This is a special case of a general fundamental point I'm struggling with.

Let's assume AI has reduced the marginal cost of code to zero. So our supply of code is now infinite.

Meanwhile, other critical factors continue to be finite: time in a day, attention, interest, goodwill, paying customers, money, energy.

So how do you choose what to build?

Like a genie, the tools give us the power to ask for whatever we want. And like a genie, it turns out we often don't really know what we want.

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