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Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

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Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#51

Post by jrabone »

humbledrone wrote: post #44
anthonyb wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only very slightly. Also, it suffers from the same problem as the Mine Kafon, in that it's a more-or-less random walk and you won't know whether the whole area is cleared.

> Only very slightly. Just to be clear, are you saying that it is only very slightly better for a sheep, rather than a human child, to be maimed by a land mine? That seems to be what you wrote, but I'm having a very difficult time reconciling your world view with my own, so I'm hoping that I am somehow misunderstanding.

Thinking as a farming peasant, perhaps your child is probably worth less to me than my sheep? Only one is going to feed my family and keep me warm.

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#52

Post by peteretep »

digitalengineer wrote: post #18

How about a bio-solution? A fast-growing 1-year non-reproductive plant or weed that's engineered to grows best (or not grow) around old explosive chemicals? I imagine dropping seeds from a plane around a (old) minefield. After a few months you'll see plants popping up and you'll know that's where the old mines are.

Maybe you were thinking of:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/3437019.stm

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#53

Post by _djo_ »

primitur wrote: post #43
_djo_ wrote: post #13

Sadly, demining is not this simple or easy. Mine rollers and mine flails like this have been tried and tested since WWI but none have proven completely effective in finding and clearing mines. This is partially because they only work well on totally flat terrain and rapidly lose effectiveness in rougher terrain where a large number of mines are typically buried. In practice, solutions like this achieve only 50-60% ef…

Surprise, surprise .. 'authorities' are 'doing it better'. Well, this tech is not for the authorities. Its for children to use to help clear the danger away from their villages. Its a tech that anyone can apply, not just those with access industrialized manufacturing facilities and the 'mine-clearing economy'. 99% clearance rate? I think most villages would be happy with being able to clear a safe path for their kids…

What you don't understand is that mined areas are typically marked off, which is why it's children who are most often affected because they're more likely to ignore warning signs. Nonetheless because most people stay away from those areas the risk is lower.

When you demine an area, you signal that it's safe for the population to move in, which means that if you haven't actually cleared 99% of the mines you're increasing the possibility of a person stepping on a mine. That's the reason the UN demands such a high clearance rate before an area can be declared safe for humans to live in.

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#54

Post by _djo_ »

huhtenberg wrote: post #25
robotresearcher wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A truly random path would be pretty good, since you approach perfect coverage with repeated runs. Alas, the wind direction is not random, particularly in this kind of environment. An interesting demining approach is to buy the local villagers lots of sheep and pen them in the areas of concern. Once in a while a sheep goes boom. Meanwhile: wool and baby sheep as a side effect.

Truly random paths would give you the 97.8% probability that there are no mines left, over a course of N field traversals. Obviously, that ain't good enough.

Only if you assume totally flat terrain and 100% probability of the Mine Kafon detonating each mine it passes over, neither of which are likely.

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#55

Post by Cass »

robotresearcher wrote: post #19
chad_oliver wrote: post #10

This is a great solution, but it seems like it is designed to follow a random path (that is, where the wind blows). How do you prevent this from creating a false sense of security, when in fact there are areas of the desert which have not been tested? I remember when I was little I built a small platform high up in a tree. My father refused to let me put a rail around it, because the sort of rail I could build would…

A truly random path would be pretty good, since you approach perfect coverage with repeated runs. Alas, the wind direction is not random, particularly in this kind of environment. An interesting demining approach is to buy the local villagers lots of sheep and pen them in the areas of concern. Once in a while a sheep goes boom. Meanwhile: wool and baby sheep as a side effect.

How are people supposed to shear those sheep, or take care of them during lambing/when they're sick, or to feed or water them, if they can't actually enter the pen? It seems to me that sheep penned in a land mine field would either be useless, because you couldn't go near them, or worse than useless, because they'd be a temptation to enter the dangerous area.

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#57

Post by jonke »

_djo_ wrote: post #13

Sadly, demining is not this simple or easy. Mine rollers and mine flails like this have been tried and tested since WWI but none have proven completely effective in finding and clearing mines. This is partially because they only work well on totally flat terrain and rapidly lose effectiveness in rougher terrain where a large number of mines are typically buried. In practice, solutions like this achieve only 50-60% ef…

I agree. Demining for human/civilian is harder than just to clear a way for a military purpose. The thing with projects like this roller is that it actually takes money and time from the things that really work, like sniffer dogs.

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#58

Post by natrius »

jrabone wrote: post #51
humbledrone wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only very slightly. Just to be clear, are you saying that it is only very slightly better for a sheep, rather than a human child, to be maimed by a land mine? That seems to be what you wrote, but I'm having a very difficult time reconciling your world view with my own, so I'm hoping that I am somehow misunderstanding.

Thinking as a farming peasant, perhaps your child is probably worth less to me than my sheep? Only one is going to feed my family and keep me warm.

You're intending to be counter-intuitively insightful, but there are few scenarios in which a sheep is more valuable than a child. You could sell a child for more than you could sell a sheep. The children who are in the most danger from mines are past infancy, and that is when children begin to be worth more than they cost to maintain if you aren't sending them to school.

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#59

Post by Cass »

peteretep wrote: post #21

I wonder if you could offer £10 per retrieved landmine as a bounty, and let local entrepreneurs try and work out the details...

In an area where £10 might be enough money to pay for a doctor's visit for a deathly ill child, or feed a family for a month, you'd probably get a lot of people risking their life and getting killed to get their hands on just one landmine, which strikes me as a singularly inefficient and cruel way to try and clear those fields.

Re: Low-cost Solution to Clearing Afghan Landmines

#60

Post by nakkiel »

Cass wrote: post #55
robotresearcher wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A truly random path would be pretty good, since you approach perfect coverage with repeated runs. Alas, the wind direction is not random, particularly in this kind of environment. An interesting demining approach is to buy the local villagers lots of sheep and pen them in the areas of concern. Once in a while a sheep goes boom. Meanwhile: wool and baby sheep as a side effect.

How are people supposed to shear those sheep, or take care of them during lambing/when they're sick, or to feed or water them, if they can't actually enter the pen? It seems to me that sheep penned in a land mine field would either be useless, because you couldn't go near them, or worse than useless, because they'd be a temptation to enter the dangerous area.

Turns out sheep's will run toward whoever takes care of them.
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