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EU Parliamentary Research Service calls VPNs "a loophole that needs closing"

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Re: EU Parliamentary Research Service calls VPNs "a loophole that needs closing"

#51

Post by eloisant »

applfanboysbgon wrote: post #32
tgv wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> grabbing Dad's phone That will only very rarely happen. Do you actually know people that will just give you their phone so you can watch porn? For more than one minute? People are so addicted to their phones. > it's not about the children It's also about the children, but there surely are parties which use the process to further their own goals. > I am tired of the intolerant being tolerated That's not the right qu…

> Do you actually know people that will just give you their phone so you can watch porn? They don't ask for it, they take it when you're busy or sleeping. Teens certainly weren't asking for Dad's VHS tapes or magazines when I was a kid. I suppose this problem is solveable, too, though. Mandatory biometric locks on every device capable of accessing the internet, why not? > That's not the right quote for this case. It…

By your logic, my kids are going to find a way to smoke weed anyway so I might as well give them some, right?

Re: EU Parliamentary Research Service calls VPNs "a loophole that needs closing"

#52

Post by ExpertAdvisor01 »

tgv wrote: post #21
vkou wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think they aren't? The Double-Irish-Dutch-Sandwich in particular was cracked down on.

Just the fact that it takes NGOs and journalists to uncover tax evasion practices. The governments and tax offices aren't looking. CumEx was a scandal in 2017, and despite being known since 1992, has only recently led to just a handful of prosecutions.

Cumex was not a tax loophole it was straight up fraud .

Re: EU Parliamentary Research Service calls VPNs "a loophole that needs closing"

#53

Post by otabdeveloper4 »

reddalo wrote: post #28
chii wrote: post #2

How come tax loopholes aren't as scrutinized? Mandatory age verification online is a blight imho. It should be outlawed.

I agree, age verification on the web should 100% banned. Parents should learn how to be parents; the government shouldn't force companies to do parenting instead.

So you're implying alcohol and cigarettes should be sold to children?

(Not to mention all the other consent age laws.)

That said, VPN is a national security issue, children are only a pretext.

Re: EU Parliamentary Research Service calls VPNs "a loophole that needs closing"

#54

Post by xg15 »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #11
jraby3 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Isn't your age verified when you renew your drivers license? Purchase something on Amazon? When I was a kid, child programming and commercials were heavily scrutinized. Now any kid can access porn, violence, and scams on the internet. That's a blight. Not age verification.

I don’t understand, did broadcast TV or cable do age verification? Surely kids could watch content that was for adults very easily.

Broadcast TV had a very simple solution to this problem: Only air the not-for-kids stuff at times of the day when the kids are already asleep, i.e. late in the evening or at night.

It was still the job of the parents to set the bed times etc, but at least this was something the parents could actually control.

And for pay-per-view stations with actual heavily violent or pornographic content: Yes, they were absolutely age-gated, usually via a PIN.

Re: EU Parliamentary Research Service calls VPNs "a loophole that needs closing"

#55

Post by oytis »

qnpnpmqppnp wrote: post #19

This title seems misleading. The EP paper appears to be highlighting the existence of a debate regarding VPN. Relevant quote: "Some argue that this is a loophole in the legislation that needs closing and call for age verification to be required for VPNs as well. In response, some VPN providers argue that they do not share information with third parties and state that their services are not intended for use by childre…

These dimwits (and I don't just mean those in EU) seriously want to stop adolescents from watching porn, and are ready to mess with internet infrastructure for that. That's a depressing manifestation of aging society

Re: EU Parliamentary Research Service calls VPNs "a loophole that needs closing"

#56

Post by microtonal »

applfanboysbgon wrote: post #45
microtonal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I should say that I am against online age identification. But if we are going to get age verification because the larger population wants it, I definitely prefer the EU's privacy-preserving age verification that uses zero knowledge proofs (yes, they have issues too) over private companies doing age verification, requiring uploading scans of your ID, filming your face, etc. For the reasons that you mention (peo…

I think this is folly. You cannot communicate this level of nuance at scale, especially when faced with opposition that actively lies to achieve their goals. Quoting an older post... > In a benevolent dictatorship, sure, go for a zero-knowledge proof verification as your solution. In the reality of democracy, where politicians are corporate puppets who cloak surveillance laws in "think of the children" to rally suppo…

In a benevolent dictatorship, sure, go for a zero-knowledge proof verification as your solution. In the reality of democracy, where politicians are corporate puppets who cloak surveillance laws in "think of the children" to rally support from the masses

I do not (completely) agree with this. This seems like the very typical US-centric view of politics. A lot of members of the European Parliament are not corporate puppets and have ideals (even if they often do not align with mine). Why would the EU come with a ZKP-based verification reference app if they were sock puppets? The corporate sock-puppet politician would just push the narrative that age verification should be left to the market (which is probably what happens in the US, where most politicians are sock-puppets due campaign sponsoring, etc.).

You will never be able to sufficiently inform 50.1% of the population of any country of what zero-knowledge proof even means, let alone convince them to support age verification laws but strictly conditional on ZKP requirements.

We do not have to convince the population. We have to convince regulators and if it becomes necessary the EU/national-level courts that handle human rights violations.

Also, in the case of the EU, they made a reference implementation of ZKP age verification and asked national governments to roll this out in their apps. One of the large issues though is that the reference implementation relies on Google Play Integrity for device attestation (+ the iOS counterpart), so if national software development agencies use the reference implementation as-is, it shuts out competing systems. They should have used AOSP device attestation, which is also supported by GrapheneOS, etc. So, besides protesting age verification, I'm trying to get the message to politicians that how device attestation is done in the reference implementation is an issue. The thing that might help here is that sovereignty is also high on the agenda.

Re: EU Parliamentary Research Service calls VPNs "a loophole that needs closing"

#57

Post by applfanboysbgon »

eloisant wrote: post #51
applfanboysbgon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you actually know people that will just give you their phone so you can watch porn? They don't ask for it, they take it when you're busy or sleeping. Teens certainly weren't asking for Dad's VHS tapes or magazines when I was a kid. I suppose this problem is solveable, too, though. Mandatory biometric locks on every device capable of accessing the internet, why not? > That's not the right quote for this case. It…

By your logic, my kids are going to find a way to smoke weed anyway so I might as well give them some, right?

Can you not be disingenuous beyond belief? That is not even remotely close to what I said. What I take issue with is that the solution is worse than the problem (and does not even solve the problem). We can solve all problems of society if we lock everyone in an isolated prison cell 24/7 except under strict supervision when working or studying. That, obviously, is a fucking insane idea. Yet it is what we are creeping towards when you defend government surveillance of every person's device usage. A solution to a problem should not be 100x worse than the problem it allegedly solves, and this is doubly true when it doesn't even solve the problem.

Obviously, not all solutions have to be 100% solutions to problems. Indeed such solutions very rarely exist in the real world. But they do need to be less of a problem than the original problem, and the more invasive they are, the more you'd better expect they solve a serious problem as comprehensively as possible rather than barely addressing a trivial problem.

Re: EU Parliamentary Research Service calls VPNs "a loophole that needs closing"

#58

Post by xg15 »

lifestyleguru wrote: post #49
JV00 wrote: post #16

Perhaps these legislators are addicted to porn and don't want their children to do to themselves the same they have done. Would explain their obsession and relentlessness to get this done. It's just a pity they are destroying the internet while doing that. They should be attacking the companies making money from porn instead. And by the way porn can damage your mind even after 18 so age verification is not a real sol…

I agree that age verification is old perverts addicted to porn simply projecting their problem onto others. Kids after a day of continuous swiping of tiktok and instagram want tattoos and bitcoin.

Which is why the age restriction would apply to "normal" social media as well?

Re: EU Parliamentary Research Service calls VPNs "a loophole that needs closing"

#59

Post by Jtarii »

applfanboysbgon wrote: post #45
microtonal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I should say that I am against online age identification. But if we are going to get age verification because the larger population wants it, I definitely prefer the EU's privacy-preserving age verification that uses zero knowledge proofs (yes, they have issues too) over private companies doing age verification, requiring uploading scans of your ID, filming your face, etc. For the reasons that you mention (peo…

I think this is folly. You cannot communicate this level of nuance at scale, especially when faced with opposition that actively lies to achieve their goals. Quoting an older post... > In a benevolent dictatorship, sure, go for a zero-knowledge proof verification as your solution. In the reality of democracy, where politicians are corporate puppets who cloak surveillance laws in "think of the children" to rally suppo…

>In the reality of democracy, where politicians are corporate puppets who cloak surveillance laws in "think of the children" to rally support from the masses

Conspiratorial gibberish

Re: EU Parliamentary Research Service calls VPNs "a loophole that needs closing"

#60

Post by lifestyleguru »

xg15 wrote: post #58
lifestyleguru wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that age verification is old perverts addicted to porn simply projecting their problem onto others. Kids after a day of continuous swiping of tiktok and instagram want tattoos and bitcoin.

Which is why the age restriction would apply to "normal" social media as well?

Even better! Now teenager can legally buy bitcoin straight in the tattoo parlor one week after their 18th birthday.
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