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What causes lightning? The answer keeps getting more interesting

quantamagazine.org

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Re: What causes lightning? The answer keeps getting more interesting

#51

Post by avazhi »

JadeNB wrote: post #16
fguerraz wrote: post #8

So, nothing new? The cosmic ray hypothesis has been dominant for a few years now. This magazine…

> So, nothing new? > The cosmic ray hypothesis has been dominant for a few years now. > This magazine… I think saying "This magazine…" as if the flaws of Quanta are well understood and agreed may need additional elaboration. If you mean that experts have known this—well, the role of Quanta is to disseminate and explain expert research to scientifically literate non-experts; it is not meant to be distributing the late…

> the role of Quanta is to disseminate and explain expert research to scientifically literate non-experts; it is not meant to be distributing the latest research itself

Quanta articles are invariably horribly written, horribly explained, and constantly do this thing whether they simultaneously are pretentious and over complicate things while also belabouring simple, elementary concepts. Essentially it’s the worst of every world.

And that’s to say nothing about how they click bait everything.

Re: What causes lightning? The answer keeps getting more interesting

#52

Post by ambicapter »

xattt wrote: post #22
freehorse wrote: post #7

Tl;dr lightings may be caused by electrons/positrons from outer space hitting a cloud and initiating an "avalanche" of electrons.

There’s a video of an EF5 tornado from the last 24-48 hours that shows continuous lightning in the background. There hasn’t been an increase in background cosmic rays, so likely the mechanism for lightning generation is likely a continuum in different scenarios. Cosmic rays are one, but not all.

Orrrrrr, there are always tons of cosmic rays of the type that create lightning hitting earth, there just aren't the conditions necessary for those rays to trigger lightning except for when there's a big storm. I imagine the clouds are a different electrical environment than a regular sky and maybe in those conditions a cosmic rays will trigger lightning. Like a gigantic bubble chamber made of our atmosphere.

Re: What causes lightning? The answer keeps getting more interesting

#53

Post by avazhi »

dezsiszabi wrote: post #44
avazhi wrote: post #40

[flagged]

Is that the purpose of Quanta? To provide new info, new info to who? To you, specifically? Its purpose: https://www.quantamagazine.org/about/

Quanta articles are invariably horribly written, horribly explained, and constantly do this thing where they simultaneously are pretentious and over complicate things while also belabouring simple, elementary concepts. Essentially it’s the worst of every world.

And that’s to say nothing about how they click bait everything.

Re: What causes lightning? The answer keeps getting more interesting

#54

Post by avazhi »

chermi wrote: post #43
avazhi wrote: post #40

[flagged]

Explain exactly what's click bait about it? Spell it out like I'm an idiot who found the article quite good for a fairly wide audience.

Sure.

Look at the title. Imagine what you'd expect an article whose title is "What causes lightning?" to say.

Now, here's how the article closes:

"These features suggest that even as explanations get more comprehensive, the case of how lightning really works will keep getting reopened. “It just gets more and more bizarre the more we look,” Dwyer said. “Clearly our very simple pictures here are really incomplete.”

So TLDR, we don't know, we know we don't know, and in fact we anticipate not knowing for quite some time. The article explicitly admits it doesn't know the answer to the question it posed in the title - no, the answer doesn't keep getting more interesting, because we don't have the answer yet.

That's clickbait.

Re: What causes lightning? The answer keeps getting more interesting

#55

Post by themaninthedark »

xattt wrote: post #22
freehorse wrote: post #7

Tl;dr lightings may be caused by electrons/positrons from outer space hitting a cloud and initiating an "avalanche" of electrons.

There’s a video of an EF5 tornado from the last 24-48 hours that shows continuous lightning in the background. There hasn’t been an increase in background cosmic rays, so likely the mechanism for lightning generation is likely a continuum in different scenarios. Cosmic rays are one, but not all.

Volcanic eruptions are also known to have lightning in the eruption plume.

Re: What causes lightning? The answer keeps getting more interesting

#56

Post by fragmede »

varispeed wrote: post #47
saltyoldman wrote: post #39

Probably the same thing that causes my fingers to get a small spark when I'm walking in the grocery store holding a cart and touching the shelves.

I sometimes get a spark when petting my cat

Get a humidifier, the air is too dry.

Re: What causes lightning? The answer keeps getting more interesting

#57

Post by j_seigh »

margalabargala wrote: post #46
kjkjadksj wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prize is too low. Says it only delivers 38 gallons of gas equivalent energy, assuming no loss which there will be.

There are some places that are hit by lighting with high regularity where it might make sense. Lightning rods on tall buildings. Somewhere near here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catatumbo_lightning

Lighting rods also work by dissipating the local electric potential and reducing the likelihood of a lightning strike. That's why they are pointed, or fractal in the newer ones.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_rod "and that a considerable electric current can be measured through the conductors as ionization occurs at the point when an electric field is present, such as happens when thunderclouds are overhead."

You can get a ground charge even when thunderclouds aren't present. It just has to be windy. I've always wondered if it was worth collecting this, say with a field with a grid of interconnected lightning rods in a windy location.

Re: What causes lightning? The answer keeps getting more interesting

#58

Post by quinncom »

j_seigh wrote: post #57
margalabargala wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some places that are hit by lighting with high regularity where it might make sense. Lightning rods on tall buildings. Somewhere near here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catatumbo_lightning

Lighting rods also work by dissipating the local electric potential and reducing the likelihood of a lightning strike. That's why they are pointed, or fractal in the newer ones. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_rod "and that a considerable electric current can be measured through the conductors as ionization occurs at the point when an electric field is present, such as happens when thunderclouds are over…

It must have been so fun to be Benjamin Franklin. He installed an electric bell in-line on his first lightning rods so that this increase in electrical potential would cause the bell to ring, signaling that the danger for lightning was increased.

You can experience this voltage potential firsthand: take a friend to a hill or somewhere where high‑voltage power lines are nearer to the ground. One person, wearing rubber-soled shoes, stands tall with an arm in the air. The other squats down with both hands on the ground. The standing person uses the non-raised hand to gently touch the sensitive skin of the other person (ear lobe, lips), and they can feel an electric arc.

Re: What causes lightning? The answer keeps getting more interesting

#59

Post by chermi »

avazhi wrote: post #54
chermi wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain exactly what's click bait about it? Spell it out like I'm an idiot who found the article quite good for a fairly wide audience.

Sure. Look at the title. Imagine what you'd expect an article whose title is "What causes lightning?" to say. Now, here's how the article closes: "These features suggest that even as explanations get more comprehensive, the case of how lightning really works will keep getting reopened. “It just gets more and more bizarre the more we look,” Dwyer said. “Clearly our very simple pictures here are really incomplete.” So…

No. The title has a question mark. And the premise that many people think lightning is a dielectric breakdown from high voltage is accurate (if not those words). Posing it as a question is completely valid because it still is an open question.
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