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Heat pump sales rise across Europe

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Re: Heat pump sales rise across Europe

#51

Post by adonovan »

double0jimb0 wrote: post #20
jakozaur wrote: post #8

A heat pump could win as the best HVAC technology, though a better drilling for ground-sourced ones. Just a shallow drilling (up to 100m) that works in retrofit mode, such as drilling from the basement, would be a great upgrade: - No outdoor unit that looks awful in many settings - works well, even in the coldest winter, without a spike in electricity usage, COP 5 - very reliable with long durability - super quiet, n…

Ground source heat pump owner here in the US. The original system was installed in 2007, and the loop field was designed to "best knowledge at the time". Well in the 20 years since then, NREL changed guidance on how far apart and how deep loops need to be installed. Rightly so, because our circa-2007 is "short looped", it's not sufficient for the house loads, but there is nothing we do about it other than putting on…

Does the ground source heat up (or cool down) over time, making it less effective? The deep ground is very well insulated, which is why after a century of operation the London Underground is 10 degrees warmer. I wonder whether GSHP users need to balance their load by (say) consuming more heating than they actually need in winter so that summer cooling remains effective.

Re: Heat pump sales rise across Europe

#52

Post by masklinn »

shellfishgene wrote: post #39
seydor wrote: post #32

in the south, a lot of people opt for split Airconditioning instead of heatpumps. Cheaper and much easier to install/maintain

That's the same thing, no?

In the same way that an electric motor and a generator are the same thing.

Re: Heat pump sales rise across Europe

#53

Post by [deleted] »

joe_mamba wrote: post #34
konschubert wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Friends in south Sweden and they got a hole drilled in the front yard like it’s the most normal thing. Is it there?

The challenge is for people who live in apartment buildings in urban environment where you have no front yard you can drill into at your leisure.

[deleted]

Re: Heat pump sales rise across Europe

#54

Post by c0balt »

gpm wrote: post #45
joe_mamba wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In DACH, there's not really an alternative for many homes. And yet in Austria, most apartment buildings in big cities are still heated by burning heating oil, gas or even firewood. Worst of the worst for air quality. Walk through Graz in sub-zero winters and it's like you're breathing in a barbeque bonfire. Even your clothes smell like soot when you get home if you've been out too long. Which is bizarre to me, consi…

Beurocratic and political limitation. Firewood and heating oil isn't cheaper, it merely has lower upfront cost in exchange for a higher total cost. An efficient governance system (whether that's capitalism and banks with loans or renting out the hearpumps or a centrally planned replacement program or anything else) would figure out the financing and save the system money by updating. Technology can make the incentive…

There is also a minor incentive problem here, mainly that a landlord can/will often offload the running costs, Nebenkosten, to the renters indefinitely.

That means they are sometimes economically incentivized to choose an option with lower initial cost but a higher running cost. Governments can/do bend these incentives via taxes but it can be hard/expensive to renovate old complexes (and that part cannot directly be offloaded by the landlord).

Re: Heat pump sales rise across Europe

#55

Post by bluGill »

double0jimb0 wrote: post #47
hvb2 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, has the demand stayed the same? I'm asking because you see the same with electricity grids, designed in a different time with much lower demand. Sorry to hear this, it seems like a great system to me but you have to have the capacity right. I'm planning on getting one in the next year but the drilling will be more than we need and we opt for no glycol (yet) as that also gives us headroom

I don't think system ever met demand when commissioned (we are 3rd owners). 1st owner largely neglected the system (which I interpret as reaction to it not working well), 2nd owner had local company known for "fixing geothermal" do a lot of retrofits (new higher flow pumps, increasing diameter on plumbing within the utility room to decrease "lift/work" required of the compressors, more feedback sensors / logic boards…

It seems like you need to add new pipes. That isn't impossible, but it isn't cheap even compared to compressors.

Re: Heat pump sales rise across Europe

#56

Post by gosub100 »

shellfishgene wrote: post #39
seydor wrote: post #32

in the south, a lot of people opt for split Airconditioning instead of heatpumps. Cheaper and much easier to install/maintain

That's the same thing, no?

I think they mean "air exchange" (split AC) vs "heat pump" (dig into the earth to draw/eliminate heat). Not saying that's the right definition though. I am guessing at an auto-correction of what they meant.

Re: Heat pump sales rise across Europe

#57

Post by thinkcontext »

seydor wrote: post #32

in the south, a lot of people opt for split Airconditioning instead of heatpumps. Cheaper and much easier to install/maintain

Do the places you are referring to not require heat? If so I don't see why having a separate heating and cooling system would be cheaper to maintain than a single system. Come to think of it I don't see why a heatpump would be more expensive to maintain than split AC. I guess there is some extra circuitry to make sure it doesn't ice up in the winter and maybe backup resistance heating builtin.

Re: Heat pump sales rise across Europe

#58

Post by double0jimb0 »

adonovan wrote: post #51
double0jimb0 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ground source heat pump owner here in the US. The original system was installed in 2007, and the loop field was designed to "best knowledge at the time". Well in the 20 years since then, NREL changed guidance on how far apart and how deep loops need to be installed. Rightly so, because our circa-2007 is "short looped", it's not sufficient for the house loads, but there is nothing we do about it other than putting on…

Does the ground source heat up (or cool down) over time, making it less effective? The deep ground is very well insulated, which is why after a century of operation the London Underground is 10 degrees warmer. I wonder whether GSHP users need to balance their load by (say) consuming more heating than they actually need in winter so that summer cooling remains effective.

I think there are two types of this, only have experience with 1 so far. Within a single season, absolutely. In deep winter entering water temp (EWT) is around 30degF (this is a pretty accurate measure of bulk ground temp). Typical for where I live is 50degF.

Other type is permanent change that persists year over year. Haven't lived here long enough to measure this. But if you pull more heat from the ground in the winter than you put back into it into summer (we use a water to air compressor for AC in summer), then yes, it can happen and does happen. Don't know if we are in this bucket yet.

Re: Heat pump sales rise across Europe

#59

Post by bluGill »

yxhuvud wrote: post #29
raverbashing wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drilling only works if you have access to a garden where to drill. Any kind of apartment has to use the outdoor unit

In sensible countries each housing unit have a central heating solution, regardless of where the heat comes from.

That is you thinking whatever your area does must be best. Different does not mean better. there are pros and cons.

Re: Heat pump sales rise across Europe

#60

Post by cassepipe »

I think there's one big issue for massive electrification and insulation of buildings: renting.

As a renter, I have no incentives to invest thousands in my home's betterment because I will have lost those when I am gone. As an owner, I have no incentives to make my apartment/house better because I don't live in it and I don't pay the energy bills.

Something has to be done about that if we want to combat climate change. I know in France it is now forbidden to rent again or sale when the renter leaves if the home's energy grade is F or G (A is best) but it is probably loosely enforced/easy to circumvent. And it is too damn slow ! This is for regulation but maybe there are other levers ?

As a renter I would basically have to wait for energy prices to skyrocket for it to make economic sense. I hate this situation.

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