Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am an AI engineer and I honestly agree. Talking about LLMs feels like the new crypto, with some nuances (i.e. many innovative things being possible and done with LLMs whereas crypto innovations were… few and far between).
it’s felt like the new crypto to me for about 2-3 years now. i was doing an ML Sec phd a year or two before all this hype took off. i took one of the OG transformer papers along to present at our official little phd reading group when the paper was only a few months old (the details of this might be a bit sketchy here, was years ago now). now i want nothing to do with the field in any way shape or form. i’m just done…
Let's talk about LLMs
51–60 of 201 posts
Re: Let's talk about LLMs
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
To clarify, AI should not do the design itself. You develop the design in conversation with AI. I come in knowing what I need to build and at least one idea or more of how it should be done. I present the problem, constraints, potential solutions, and ask for criticisms and alternatives. I can keep it as broad as possible or I can get more granular like struct layouts, api endpoints, etc. I go back and forth until th…
> It's wildly better at tight and limited scope than large scale changes but even then I would rather code it myself. One thing I would like to see is the use of LLMs for smarter semi-manual editing. While programming I often need to make very similar changes in several places. If the instances are similar enough I can get away with recording a one-off keyboard macro to repeat, but if there are differences that are t…
Re: Let's talk about LLMs
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
I didn't get the sense that the author is nervous. What I tend to see are people who are nervous that going all-in on LLM workflows might not have the payoff they are expecting, and are becoming increasingly fanatical as a result. Just one more harness bro. Just one more agentic swarm. Please bro, just one more Claude Max subscription. Please bro.
You say this as though performance has not followed a very clear and extremely rapid improvement in a startlingly short amount of time. You’re definitely right that people adopt agentic workflows and are disappointed or worse, but the point is the disappointment has already reduced substantially and will continue to do so. We know this because we know the scaling laws, and also because learning theory has been around…
We're almost 6 months into all this AI-code madness and I've yet to see that "rapid improvement" you mention. As in software products that are genuinely better compared to 6 months ago, or new software products (and good software products at that) which would have not existed had this AI craze not happened.
Re: Let's talk about LLMs
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
LLMs became much better at both reviewing and writing code over the last 12-18 months. Did you? The current state of the art is irrelevant. Only the first couple of time derivatives matter.
> Did you? I would say I got better at both of those over the last 12-18 months. Are your skills static?
Lmao why does it seem outlandish to other people? Perhaps they never thought too deeply in the first place to recognise it.
Re: Let's talk about LLMs
#55I think you're misunderstanding the paradigm shift completely -- AI does not just generate code N(x) more quickly. It thinks N(x) faster, it researches N(x) faster, it tests N(x) faster. There are hundreds of tasks that you'll find engineers are offloading to AI every day. The major hurdle right now is actually pivoting LLMs from just generating code: integrating those tasks into workflows. This is why tool-use and a…
Debugging, sanity checking, testing, etc. are the best uses of LLMs. Much better than writing code. Developers should write their own code and use LLMs to design and verify. Better, faster architecture and planning, pre-cleaned PRs and no skill atrophy or loss of understanding on the part of the developer.
Re: Let's talk about LLMs
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
I didn't get the sense that the author is nervous. What I tend to see are people who are nervous that going all-in on LLM workflows might not have the payoff they are expecting, and are becoming increasingly fanatical as a result. Just one more harness bro. Just one more agentic swarm. Please bro, just one more Claude Max subscription. Please bro.
You say this as though performance has not followed a very clear and extremely rapid improvement in a startlingly short amount of time. You’re definitely right that people adopt agentic workflows and are disappointed or worse, but the point is the disappointment has already reduced substantially and will continue to do so. We know this because we know the scaling laws, and also because learning theory has been around…
Re: Let's talk about LLMs
#57Design patterns in an older (programming) language become core language features in a newer one. As we internalize and abstract away the best patterns for something, it becomes accidental but it's only obvious in retrospect.
The article quotes Brooks (quoting Parnas) about just that (later, in context of LLMs):
> automatic programming always has been a euphemism for programming with a higher-level language than was presently available to the programmer. [...] Once those accidents have been removed, the remaining ones are smaller, and the payoff from their removal will surely be less.
Considering this was written when C was the hot new stuff, let's compare the ability to code a CRUD web app in Python/Django vs C. What Brooks and Parnas are saying that Python/Django cannot bring big improvements in building a CRUD web app when compared to C because they can only make it easier to program, reducing accidental complexity. But we've since redefined "accidental" and I would argue that you can write a CRUD web app in Python/Django at least 100x faster than in C (and probably at least 100x more secure), although it may take 1000x as more CPU and RAM while running.
So "we removed most of the accidental difficulties and the most that remains is essential" is a kind of "end of history" argument.
> I’d be surprised if there’s even a doubling of productivity still available from a complete elimination of remaining accidental difficulty.
It's good that this statement has a conditional subjective guard, because that's just punditry.
> LLM coding does not represent a silver bullet
Here I agree with the author completely, but probably not for the same reasons. The definition of "silver bullet" the article uses (quoting Brooks):
> There is no single development, in either technology or management technique, which by itself promises even a single order-of-magnitude improvement within a decade in productivity, in reliability, in simplicity.
AI-assisted development is not a single technique, the same way "devops" or "testing" or "agile" is not a single technique. But more importantly, I agree it will take time to find best practices, for the technology change to slow down, and for the best approaches to diffuse across the industry.
The article's conclusion:
> You should be adopting and perfecting solid foundational software development practices like version control, comprehensive test suites, continuous integration, meaningful documentation, fast feedback cycles, iterative development, focus on users, small batches of work… things that have been known and proven for decades, but are still far too rare in actual real-world software shops.
These are great and I'm gonna let him/her finish, but it's curious actual coding isn't mentioned anywhere. The author doesn't suggest "polish your understanding of C pointer semantics" or "Rust ownership model" or "Django ORM" or to really, deeply, understand B-trees. Looks like pedestrian detailes like those are left as an excercise for the reader ... or the reader's LLM.
Re: Let's talk about LLMs
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
The article addresses exactly this objection. Most importantly, it quotes that AI coding tools have a detrimental effect on software stability - which is basically raison d'etre for our profession. When it produces more robust software and handles on-call shifts better than humans, I will consider programming done.
I'm excited to read the first cogent piece making this point that doesn't devolve to gatekeeping, a detached and vaguely hostile professional software developer telling people with a newfound capability to solve practical problems for themselves with new software that they don't or shouldn't want the thing that they want, because whatever it is they come up with won't be "fit for purpose" until blessed by the guild,…
Re: Let's talk about LLMs
#59I think you're misunderstanding the paradigm shift completely -- AI does not just generate code N(x) more quickly. It thinks N(x) faster, it researches N(x) faster, it tests N(x) faster. There are hundreds of tasks that you'll find engineers are offloading to AI every day. The major hurdle right now is actually pivoting LLMs from just generating code: integrating those tasks into workflows. This is why tool-use and a…
> , it tests N(x) faster. It does? You mean "it tests itself faster", which is not really a test now, is it?
Re: Let's talk about LLMs
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
The article addresses exactly this objection. Most importantly, it quotes that AI coding tools have a detrimental effect on software stability - which is basically raison d'etre for our profession. When it produces more robust software and handles on-call shifts better than humans, I will consider programming done.
I'm excited to read the first cogent piece making this point that doesn't devolve to gatekeeping, a detached and vaguely hostile professional software developer telling people with a newfound capability to solve practical problems for themselves with new software that they don't or shouldn't want the thing that they want, because whatever it is they come up with won't be "fit for purpose" until blessed by the guild,…
I've had this conversation with managers in multiple organizations this year: "Yes, you could totally vibe code that instead of paying for a SaaS. But you have strict contractual and professional obligations about data security. Do you want to be deposed and asked, 'So, did you really just vibe code the system that led to the data leak? Did the vibe coders have any professional qualifications? Did they even look at the code?'"
Similarly, a backend server that handles 8 million users a day is expected to stay up.
Now, there are 10,000 things that have less demanding requirements. I'm actually really delighted that people are able to vibe code their own tools with minimal knowledge of software engineering! We have been chronically underproducing niche software all along.
But if your software already has on-call shifts (and SLAs, etc) like the GP, then I think you want to be smart about how you combine human expertise with LLMs.