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How Monero’s proof of work works

blog.alcazarsec.com

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Re: How Monero’s proof of work works

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll get nothing but up votes here on HN, a lot are still angry they missed the boat. But solving the problem of how to transfer value trustlessly and anonymously, instantly anywhere in the world is one of the biggest breakthroughs since the Internet. Amazing how in a few short years kids started growing up with Bitcoin and don't understand how it work or why it exists :(

It was mainly the early wall street types that cashed in big. If it was used as suggested by satoshi, then you were using it as spending cash rather than an investment to sit on, in which case you shouldn't have made much money on it.

Don't forget about the pineapple fund : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineapple_Fund

Also wall street never considered it seriously until a few years ago.

Re: How Monero’s proof of work works

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is subtle, but PoW mining itself doesn't generate coins. It isn't like someone is digging a hole in the ground and extracting gold. PoW miners are rewarded for correctly validating transactions, with newly minted coins. The whole proof of work thing is that you proved that you validated a transaction by expending energy, and the network pays you for that security service. Miners then need to sell those coins on th…

Agreed with your explanation. I would add a different way to make sense of it. Proof of work allows for what Keynes called "Bancor". BTC is succesful because unlike fiat central banks, the money supply isn't dictated by interest rates (and thus loans) but by the effort of participants. The price of BTC is almost irrelevant, BTC itself is a paradigm shift. Regarding the fixed supply, it's only fixed because participan…

Full disclosure, I was a bitcoin, and 5MW litecoin miner, and 150,000 GPU ETH miner, so I was pretty deeply involved in it for many years.

Correct on the rest, but I just want to say that I was intentionally avoiding discussing specific tokens or the politics due to HN's stance on crypto.

Re: How Monero’s proof of work works

#54

I never quite understand this stuff, maybe someone can help. Are cryptocurrencies supposed to be a potential replacement for real life cash? This was my understanding of the motivation behind Bitcoin, at least. If so, why does it make sense that people can "generate" cash by proving some amount of work done? This of course cannot be done with normal cash. Is the main functionality of these cryptocurrencies supposed t…

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Re: How Monero’s proof of work works

#55

I never quite understand this stuff, maybe someone can help. Are cryptocurrencies supposed to be a potential replacement for real life cash? This was my understanding of the motivation behind Bitcoin, at least. If so, why does it make sense that people can "generate" cash by proving some amount of work done? This of course cannot be done with normal cash. Is the main functionality of these cryptocurrencies supposed t…

Yes, Bitcoin is a replacement for central banking currencies. Its the first few lines of the white paper. This is how money works. If you use a medium of exchange and unit of account for goods and services then that medium must increase at the same rate as the increase in goods and services otherwise you get second and third order effects such as inflation, contraction, rising unemployment, etc., directly impacting i…

> In Bitcoin you don't generate cash, you earn block rewards for acting as a consensus broker which otherwise would require a central banking settlement layer. This activity, tied directly to the transaction layer, acts to maintain the equilibrium between increases in goods and services and expansion of the money supply.

Block rewards have no connection to transaction volume or economic activity, the protocol is designed such that bitcoin supply increases at a predictable (and diminishing) rate. Bitcoin is deflationary by design, which is one of the major issues that stopped it from becoming anything other than a speculative store of value.

Re: How Monero’s proof of work works

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely true, no one needs monero when you can have bitcoin (and lightning for private instant bitcoin payments).

Lightning Network, ready in 18 months for the last 5 years! Lol.

It's very usable. It's just not the PoS some expected.

Re: How Monero’s proof of work works

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This of course cannot be done with normal cash. Normal cash is just printed out from thin air by those who have the power. In that sense (some) cryptocurrencies are better because at least the process is open.

Is it not printed out of thin air by those that have compute power ?

Running computer power costs a lot more than thin air.

Re: How Monero’s proof of work works

#59

I never quite understand this stuff, maybe someone can help. Are cryptocurrencies supposed to be a potential replacement for real life cash? This was my understanding of the motivation behind Bitcoin, at least. If so, why does it make sense that people can "generate" cash by proving some amount of work done? This of course cannot be done with normal cash. Is the main functionality of these cryptocurrencies supposed t…

There are two parts of an answer to this, because your questions are somewhat divergent:

> why does it make sense that people can "generate" cash by proving some amount of work done? This of course cannot be done with normal cash.

People do generate money when they work, in a sense, because money doesn't have value. Money represents value. To really understand that you need to think about what money is and why it was invented in the first place.

Before the invention of money there was only direct exchange; I do/give something for/to you and you do/give something for/to me in return. But what if you want what I have but I don't want what you have? Or what if we want something from each other but are too far apart to make the exchange directly? Well, we find a third participant who can act as a kind of transfer agent. They could, for instance, have something I want that you don't want and also want something from you. They trade with you first so now you have something from them that you don't want that you can then trade to me for the thing you want, and everyone is happy. This extends to arbitrarily many, dozens or hundreds even, of intermediate steps.

Now it should be easy to recognize two things:

1) Everyone needing to store a bunch of stuff they don't actually want just so they can pass it on to the next person can become a huge burden for everyone. And how do you store labor anyway? You can't. You can only store goods.

2) Organizing dozens of intermediate links is an extremely difficult problem to solve just so you can get what I have.

The first one can be solved by exchanging IOU vouchers instead. The holder of the voucher becomes entitled to the thing that hasn't yet been given or done. Storing those vouchers is trivially easy compared to storing the things. And you can just as easily store vouchers for work that hasn't been done yet as you can for goods that haven't been given yet.

The second one can be solved by saying what if people put their vouchers into a central voucher bank instead of passing all their vouchers around to each other directly, and then the central voucher bank organizes all the intermediate steps for people without people needing to figure out who has the vouchers they need to complete the chain.

And then once you're there, why even use specific IOUs at all? Why not have all the vouchers be generic but you get different amounts of them instead of different kinds that you can then use freely for anything? And that's obviously what money is.

And from there a new thing should become obvious: The money itself doesn't have any intrinsic value. The labor/good behind it does. Money is just a way of representing the value of something you did/produced in a form that can be easily traded for other things. It's the medium of exchange, not the product. And when there are fewer vouchers in the system relative to what's being produced, each voucher becomes worth more (deflation), and vice versa (inflation). And then the government literally prints and destroys vouchers as needed to try to keep a balance. That is a thing that happens. And so what if there can be prolonged time delays between you doing your work and you receiving your vouchers under some systems? Time delays are not inherent, just practical for bookkeeping. And when long time delays are not practical for bookkeeping they become shorter.

> Are cryptocurrencies supposed to be a potential replacement for real life cash? This was my understanding of the motivation behind Bitcoin, at least.

Only as an unrealistic pretense in the current climate. The reality is that a currency needs to be both moderately inflationary and also very stable to be useful as a medium of exchange of goods/services. You never want it to be a better financial decision to hold onto currency forever instead of using it, and you also never want people to randomly wake up destitute. And regardless of whether bitcoin is technically inflationary in the near term, it is not practically inflationary, and it's definitely not stable.

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