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Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

nytimes.com

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Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#51

Post by antiframe »

WalterBright wrote: post #30
lysace wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure that is applicable here. The practice — supported by artificial intelligence and known as dynamic pricing or surveillance pricing — can lead to two consumers paying different amounts for the same item from the same retailer, at roughly the same time. If a store knows, for example, that one of those customers lives in a wealthier neighborhood, it can charge that person a higher price.

That has always happened. If you go to a flea market, do you think the seller isn't going to bump up the price if you look prosperous or desperate? Do you think the roof replacement company isn't going to make a bid based on how wealthy or poor your neighborhood looks? Or you need a new water heater? Do you think grocery stores in wealthy neighborhoods charge more? We live in a market economy. If you don't like the p…

At the flea market you can haggle. Are you saying we should all have to haggle with the harried checkout person over the price of milk ever time we shop? Or everything is self checkout and you don't haggle but then choose whether you accept the price or not?

As with many things in technology, it's not about the raw concept, it's about the automation of it and inability to appeal to a human. Haggling face to face is human. Having a bot decide what you are paying (take it or leave it) is asymmetric with the benefit going to the corpo.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#52

Post by tehjoker »

oceanplexian wrote: post #41
njovin wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ban is specifically on adjusting prices _per-consumer_ based on data known/collected/stolen/assumed about the consumer.

Price controls will screw over the most vulnerable consumers. Small businesses will offer lower prices to price sensitive or low-income consumers or repeat customers. Because despite what you will read about on Reddit, the owners are not cartoon characters, live in the community and care about their neighbors.

You think this is like 1800s levels of economic development?

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#54

Post by alex43578 »

dlcarrier wrote: post #53

Grocery stores have smaller margins and more options compared to pretty much any industry, yet politicians seem to think they are the cause of all of our ills.

It’s just pandering to voters who don’t know better. See: price of eggs in the last election.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#56

Post by grogenaut »

cogman10 wrote: post #45
clintonb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're thinking of pricing zones—shoppers in Zone A pay a different price than those in Zone B. This makes sense, for example, if shipping costs are higher in Zone B. The bill in question is about per-shopper pricing (e.g, you and I pay different prices in the same store). This is something Lyft and Uber do, but it's not really possible in retail.

> This is something Lyft and Uber do, but it's not really possible in retail. It is possible for retail. For example, you can simply not display the price. You can display a price range. You can use EInk displays which auto-update based on who's approaching the item. And of course it's infinitely possible in an online store. One example of how this is being employed is McDonalds trying to push everyone to use the app…

part of the reason I don't go there anymore. I noticed recently taco bell in my area no longer asks about their app, just takes my order.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#57

Post by alex43578 »

cogman10 wrote: post #46
amazingamazing wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says loyalty programs and https://mgaleg.maryland.gov/mgawebsite/Legislation/Details/H... makes no mention of this store restriction. Just retailer. It’s unclear to me why transportation demand pricing is allowed but not delivery. I expect the outcome of this to be prices raised for everyone and then loyalty discounts per group.

> It’s unclear to me why transportation demand pricing is allowed but not delivery. I don't think it should be allowed. It's predatory. It allows a company like Uber and Lyft to see things like "Oh, you are going to a hospital, then I'm going to apply a 10% surcharge because you are probably desperate". It also works against the drivers. Uber/Lyft see things like "This person is logged on for 8 hours, they are desper…

Why shouldn’t a company be allowed to price the product differently? For an airline, booking a flight 6 months out, 6 days out, or 6 hours out are different situations.

For Uber/Lyft, booking a ride into the middle of nowhere carries a cost for the driver that isn’t present when booking a ride to the airport.

A flat fee per mile doesn’t make sense. A flat fee per seat doesn’t make sense. Grocery stores already price segment via coupons, sales, and loyalty programs - this is just an extension of that.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#58

Post by wolftune »

chis wrote: post #33
amazingamazing wrote: post #9

Why grocery stores only? It’s also unclear how this will change anything - don’t the grocery stores in richer areas already charge more? I’ve noticed Whole Foods prices are not the same across all stores even in the same state.

Price targeting can help the poor in some cases and hurt them in others. For essentials where the need to purchase is high and the provider has a semi-monopoly, dynamic pricing leaves everyone worse off. For instance, think of groceries where there is only one store nearby or medicines with only one producer. On the other hand, for something like a Netflix subscription, price discrimination DOES tend to help the poor…

Price discrimination at all is not the same as individualized prices. And really the issue conflates two things: 1, privacy and surveillance pricing; 2, AI profit-maximizing.

Even if Netflix or others do price-discrimination, the AI-pricing issue would still be used to squeeze as much as possible from the poor. It's not like these blood-sucking capitalists who run these massive corporations are into helping the poor.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#59

Post by WalterBright »

antiframe wrote: post #51
WalterBright wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That has always happened. If you go to a flea market, do you think the seller isn't going to bump up the price if you look prosperous or desperate? Do you think the roof replacement company isn't going to make a bid based on how wealthy or poor your neighborhood looks? Or you need a new water heater? Do you think grocery stores in wealthy neighborhoods charge more? We live in a market economy. If you don't like the p…

At the flea market you can haggle. Are you saying we should all have to haggle with the harried checkout person over the price of milk ever time we shop? Or everything is self checkout and you don't haggle but then choose whether you accept the price or not? As with many things in technology, it's not about the raw concept, it's about the automation of it and inability to appeal to a human. Haggling face to face is h…

I've never encountered or heard of a grocery store that didn't mark the prices on the shelves.

> asymmetric with the benefit going to the corpo

You have the power to say "no". The only transactions you are forced into are the ones dealing with the government or the mob.

> inability to appeal to a human

I was stonewalled by a gigantic corporation the other day over a substantial sum of money. I googled the name and address of the CEO, and sent him a hand written polite letter. My issue was promptly resolved.

I know the CEO didn't read the letter. But he has staff that does, and hand writing a letter will get their attention, as well as reminding them that I was a loyal customer.

Re: Maryland to ban A.I.-driven price increases in grocery stores

#60

Post by WalterBright »

tzs wrote: post #48
WalterBright wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This isn't government setting prices. It's just government outlawing a certain form of price discrimination. I.e. the government is regulating prices, yet another attempt going on for 4,000 years of trying and failing to repeal the Law of Supply and Demand. > The grocery stores aren't going to raise the overall price to compensate for losing the ability to price discriminate: that would result in less profit for th…

> BTW, the article is paywalled. I have no idea how a grocery store is going to adjust prices at checkout, as the prices are marked. Many stores are rolling out electronic price tags on the shelves, which can be rapidly updated wirelessly [1]. They could probably do the price adjustment there. I'd assume they wouldn't want to make it too blatant, which would be a challenge. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/walmart…

If it adjusted the prices as someone approaches, I suspect customers would soon notice it.

I'm not going to order food at a restaurant if the menu has no prices on it, even if I'm a zillionaire.

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