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Internal FBI risk assessment of Bitcoin network [pdf]

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Re: Internal FBI risk assessment of Bitcoin network [pdf]

#51
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL. Most people do trust cash, within certain limits, because they're not crazy libertarians. The value of bitcoin is every bit as illusory and consensual as paper money. That it's not under central control and has a fixed supply is interesting, but doesn't give it intrinsic value.

Actually the fixed supply is part of what does give it intrinsic value. Value is fundamentally anything that has utility _and_ scarcity. If the supply of BTC was infinite, it would have essentially no value (or at least it's value would diminish at such a rate that it would be useless for anything).

Value is just what people think something is worth, it's a shared illusion, not an intrinsic property of ... anything much.

Having a static, fixed supply and independence from central control makes something valuable to you, not so much to me.

>If the supply of BTC was infinite, it would have essentially no value

But there are many other circumstances that could result in BTC having no value, regardless of scarcity. For instance if people stopped using it, at all. There would be no value in being the only one with bitcoin, regardless of how scarce they are.

edit: Probably not the best example, but either way, value is a perception.

Re: Internal FBI risk assessment of Bitcoin network [pdf]

#52
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People do not trust "Federal Reserve notes" Really? There I was thinking foreign governments liked holding their reserves in US dollars... > that at least some people realize that there is no such a thing like US dollar, only those "notes" printed by Ben Bernanke and his pals Wake up, SHEEPLE!

"foreign governments liked holding their reserves in US dollars" Yes every government has to keep dolar reserve because this is the only currency you can buy oil with. USA managed to force oil suppliers to accept only US dollars. This is the source of the dollar power and enable FED to print as much dollars as they want. People all over the World must purchase dollars.

Ok why do foreign governments also hold Euros, British Pounds, Chinese Yuan, Japanese Yen and Canadian Dollars as reserve currency? You're tinfoil hatting bit too hard here man.

Re: Internal FBI risk assessment of Bitcoin network [pdf]

#53

s/Bitcoin/cash/ and all the negative arguments about propensity for criminal activity are quite amusing.

It's a bit harder for someone to take over your computer to create cash.

It's pretty hard for someone to hijack your wallet with a Trojan and if they do get into your bank account that way then the police and the bank might take an interest.

I know this is a meme in the BTC community - any criticism of BTC as a payment method is met with the claim that "it's just like cash" and any criticism of weaknesses of BTC as a currency is met with the claim that "it's a payment method and a commodity". To me it pretty much fails at all of the above.

There's no doubting it's good for purchasing contraband though.

Re: Internal FBI risk assessment of Bitcoin network [pdf]

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With so few people - in Germany at least - having their assets in Gold etc. but in bank accounts in $,EUR,... I assume most people trust the currency.

Doesn't Germany hold a huge amount of gold? Additionally, the only euro country not collapsing on itself?

The only? Greece may be collapsing. To say that other Euro countries are also collapsing would at this point be hyperbole.

Re: Internal FBI risk assessment of Bitcoin network [pdf]

#55

Given that Bitcoin records all transactions for posterity, and given the ongoing rise of "big data" analytics, I'd say Bitcoin is likely to be harder , in the long run, to use for shenanigans. A government currency has forms in which transactions create no paper trail. Bitcoin does not. Really the big disruption Bitcoin could cause if it becomes well established, is to act as a stable reference frame against which th…

>Given that Bitcoin records all transactions for posterity, and given the ongoing rise of "big data" analytics, I'd say Bitcoin is likely to be harder, in the long run, to use for shenanigans. A government currency has forms in which transactions create no paper trail. Bitcoin does not.

I did some research on anonymity (mentioned in that document); I find it hard to project how private Bitcoin will be in future.

Our impression was that currently many users were careless, and that many identities (in the form of publicly disclosed Bitcoin address ownerships) were linked to meaningful transactions; such that with basic network analysis it was possible to passively observe semantically meaningful transactions, like "the person who owns this twitter account, which seems to be a real person, donated to wikileaks" or "this account which is a public organisation donation address is linked to an address that transferred bitcoins to that other organisation".

We speculated that if Bitcoin became widely used, without changes in usage patterns, then a large e-commerce site (someone like Amazon accepting payments in Bitcoin - leaving questions of scalability aside) could passively observe much of what was going on on the network, because they had so many known identity-address pairs to start with (e.g. shipping addresses).

But the other argument is that its probably relatively easy for usage patterns to change.

I think you have to assume that end-users will always be careless. We see this in almost every security setting. So it doesn't matter whether its possible for sophisticated users to guard their privacy, if you don't get privacy by default.

But people could build overlay systems which are backed onto Bitcoin. A lot of the wallet services are like this already, and are not readily amenable to the blockchain level analysis (although of course you then you are trusting your wallet service with your privacy and money). Alternatively core or client developers could add protocol-level or low-level Bitcoin mixing (again, with an overhead cost, so there might be scalability concerns), or develop client interfaces which encourage more privacy by default.

Its too early to tell how observable/analyzable it'll be in steady state, if it builds traction. I think its possible the system will end up much more observable, for casual users, than cash or even credit cards currently are, but I don't think that's inevitable.

Re: Internal FBI risk assessment of Bitcoin network [pdf]

#56

Given that Bitcoin records all transactions for posterity, and given the ongoing rise of "big data" analytics, I'd say Bitcoin is likely to be harder , in the long run, to use for shenanigans. A government currency has forms in which transactions create no paper trail. Bitcoin does not. Really the big disruption Bitcoin could cause if it becomes well established, is to act as a stable reference frame against which th…

Totally agreed, but I think it's worth pointing out that you could technically "own" the Bitcoin "printing press" if the $BTC distribution is skewed drastically to a particular majority (who could then corrupt the protocol/subsequent block chains). This is why initially, many people were told to use different mining pools or exchanges, as I recall there were a few majority cases a year or so ago (even Mt. Gox still handles > 50% of trading volume every day [1]).

That being said, assuming that everyone plays fair, uses common sense, and keeps the Bitcoins distributed fairly evenly, there shouldn't be a problem (after all, that is how Bitcoins were designed).

[1] Bitcoin Charts, "Exchange volume distribution." http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/volumepie/

Re: Internal FBI risk assessment of Bitcoin network [pdf]

#57
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefit is that the electricity bill goes to the owners of the infected computers. What does a botnet cost?

I think the comment is referring to opportunity cost, since botnet's can also be used for other profitable activities, which may bring in more money than bitcoins (such as renting them to interested parties).

Generating Bitcoins is CPU or GPU bound. There's a lot of profitable things you can do with botnets that don't compete for those resources.

Re: Internal FBI risk assessment of Bitcoin network [pdf]

#58
post #38
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People do not trust "Federal Reserve notes" (or any other official currency) - they are forced to use it, since they must pay taxes in it. That doesn't explain why people continue to accept official currency in excess of their anticipated tax bill, or why criminals who aren't expecting to pay tax at all still deal in official currency.

Because it's easy to spend since others accept it. Money itself has absolutely no value at all. It's more a promise that somebody will accept it when you want to buy something with it.

That's the whole point of fiat money, isn't it?

Re: Internal FBI risk assessment of Bitcoin network [pdf]

#59
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments are cracking down on the use of cash in ways that will only help the promotion of Bitcoin. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/10/17/large-cash...

While I am ignorant of the situation in Spain, it is interesting to note that the two other governments detailed in the linked Forbes article have extreme organized crime problems. I am sure this says something about the role of the rule of law in the bootstrapping of trust. Integrating licit and illicit revenue streams will always be a foundational issue for any illegal enterprise. I have not looked deeply into the…

The problem in Spain is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_sector

Estimated to be 20% to 25% of GDP compared to an average of 15% to 20% in the neighborhood.

Edit: as an extra fact, "we" (I've never seen one) hold most of 500€ bills that have been printed.

Re: Internal FBI risk assessment of Bitcoin network [pdf]

#60
post #30
post #16

> Since Bitcoin does not have a centralized authority, law enforcement faces difficulties detecting suspicious activity, identifying users, and obtaining transaction records Yeah. Difficulty obtaining bitcoin transaction records. Good on you, FBI.

Difficulty obtaining meaningful transaction records. Transaction are public, but often obfuscated.

By "difficult" the FBI certainly means "we'd have to perform some amount of manual reconciliation because the meaningful data won't just fall into our laps." Pretty standard for the last 15 years.

As for "obfuscation," I was under the impression that the system doesn't attempt to obfuscate what payment addresses are involved in a transaction. It's not pertinent to the network which physical person controls which addresses.

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