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People Do Not Yearn for Automation

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Re: People Do Not Yearn for Automation

#51
post #22
post #8

People totally do want to offload the drudgery. That's why there is such a thing as dishwashers, and why OpenAI has 90 million users. But they also want the drudgery to be done reliably and not require as much work checking as it would have doing it in the first place.

Labor-saving devices don't save labor at work. They increase productivity rather than reducing hours, and the extra value is captured by the employer. That's the difference between your home dishwasher and the means of production. It's also probably a big part of what worries Gen Z about when it comes to AI. They're thinking about their own employment and employment prospects, where most people probably understand th…

You missed the part in TFA where Amodei talks about gazillions of jobs going away, or literally any AI CEO saying the same thing over and over again, or mass layoffs all blaming AI.

Re: People Do Not Yearn for Automation

#52
post #8

People totally do want to offload the drudgery. That's why there is such a thing as dishwashers, and why OpenAI has 90 million users. But they also want the drudgery to be done reliably and not require as much work checking as it would have doing it in the first place.

Then use AI to make a dishwasher. Why aim for accounting first? It's easy to get users. Speaking of accounting we should probably just measure profits.

We have dishwashers.

Re: People Do Not Yearn for Automation

#53
post #25
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Majority of AI use people encounter has zero to do with "automating drudgery" and a lot to do with "producing slop fast and cheap".

I don't think those are always different things. Imagine writing copy for a store catalogue. It pays the bills but probably isn't anyone's dream job.

It's the kind of job you can do on autopilot and then work on your novel later.

So much of advancement has gotten rid of jobs you can sort of half-ass, while you put most of your energy into something that advances culture in the off hours. Think of like, photographers and school photos or weddings, poets and copy editing, etc.

This is what happens when one thinks "tech=good" no matter what. I'm not saying we need something like a huge investigation to see if something will disrupt the fragile ecosystem of artists, but I'm not not saying it.

Re: People Do Not Yearn for Automation

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. Then let's automate building vast O'Neill cylinders and habitats we can live in.

Why

Why not? Humans are awesome and should colonize the universe. There is much science to do and there are many things to build.

Re: People Do Not Yearn for Automation

#55
> The simplest definition I’ve come up with is that it’s when you see the whole world as a series of databases that can be controlled with the structured language of software code.

This is sophomoric. This person is the "editor in chief" and I'm guessing that no one had the job security to tell them that this article was silly on the face of it.

The title is good rage bait: "People Do Not Yearn for Automation". Obviously false, and it draws in the readers that want to say "Nuh uh!".

But the meat of the article is on how the seeming disconnect between technological elites and other people has lead to them touting AI when they should consider other alternatives.

This premise is shown to be dubious by a statistics in the article:

> In fact, the polling on this is so strong, I think it’s fair to say that a lot of people hate AI ...

> That’s with nearly two thirds of respondents saying they used ChatGPT or Copilot in the last month.

So, a simple question, why are so many people using something they claim to hate? Doesn't that spark a bit of interest in the author? No? They would very much like to blame industry leaders, rather than take a more nuanced view.

That said industry leaders suck. They seem to entertain magical thinking that AI will somehow replace labour. And they seem to deploy it with that end in mind. That's a stupid thing to do, but they have the money so they make the rules.

But this idea that they have "software brain" is just laughable.

> You can’t advertise people out of reacting to their own experiences.

I beg to differ.

"Stelter: Trump encourages people not to believe their eyes, ears or lungs." https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/04/media/donald-trump-disbelief-...

Re: People Do Not Yearn for Automation

#56
post #8

People totally do want to offload the drudgery. That's why there is such a thing as dishwashers, and why OpenAI has 90 million users. But they also want the drudgery to be done reliably and not require as much work checking as it would have doing it in the first place.

People want to choose what in their life they do.

My job is to improve workflows with automation and analysis, I preach progress, but in my daily life I enjoy shifting gears in my ice car, taking time to make a coffee, developing photos from an analogue camera, listening to music on physical media, all things that could be automated away...if we read stories for the ending we could flip to the last page and get it.

There are a lot of managers out there (my own included) that would automate every aspect of their own life just so they can sit around and wait for death, and assume that is what everyone else wants.

Re: People Do Not Yearn for Automation

#57
This article is the first that I’ve seen that hits on a theme I’ve been pondering for a long time. And that is that everyone super bullish on AI assumes that there are enormous real world gains to be had by existing companies automating software tasks- building software, using software- essentially moving bits around. I’ve been very skeptical of this.

We’ve had the ability to automate work between systems with bots and even regular jobs that automate certain repetitive tasks with APIs for years. Yet there’s been a relatively small uptake of bots and there is still a very large market for vendors an SIs who can improve existing processes.

I think it’s pretty clear why this disconnect exists between “regular people” and the people Patel describes as having software brain. And that is that the nature of LLMs is that they are limited to the digital world. At the core they really only do one thing and that is take some text, overlay it with digital representations of the world and try and find the one that most closely matches.

The inborn assumption is that they will get better and better and climb the corporate ladder, starting in the call center but climbing the corporate ladder to replace everyone’s jobs like Michael J Fox in the Secret of my Succcess. But I’m skeptical. Automation always starts in call central customer service use cases because that is one of the few use cases where humans are involved, they are supposed to follow a script, and take actions entirely inside software applications. But it always seems to stall out. Because once you move from jobs where a script can be provided to ones where ambiguity is a constant factor and judgments and decisions have to made that don’t have exact precedents you need humans. LLMs are backwards looking. Humans can consider things that have happened previously as guidance but critically, can also imagine a future state where things operate differently all why considering multiple competing factors, all of which are unique to that situation. They don’t always do it well but LLMs are incapable of doing it in any case.

People hate AI because it doesn’t really do that much for a regular person, is massively hyped by people who look shadier and less credible by the day and has some vague threat of destroying civilization or at least making you homeless.

But- I have zero doubt that if these same companies did actually excel at providing real world value, nobody would care about the negative implications. For example if they produced robots that could automate aspects of your life like cleaning your house, getting your groceries and doing it very inexpensively, I have no doubt the popularity would be off the charts and a bona fide bubble would ensue.

This is plainly true. First off, Waymo is one of the few companies successfully using AI to operate real world objects at enormous complexity and risk. Talk to anyone who just used Waymo for the first time and they will be almost euphoric. It’s amazing technology with overwhelming utility. There are also several examples of companies with less than stellar images who consumers were told they should boycott but most users couldn’t have cared less. Uber in its earlier days and Facebook coming out of the Cambridge Analytica scandal come to mind.

Re: People Do Not Yearn for Automation

#58
intermitent wipers IS automation , and it fails every single time it is used. Causing distraction and exasperation. This is no cutsey joke, it is a simple strait forward absolute test and proof, the day there are 100% perfect and reliable intermitent wipers that never make things worse, then we can talk about automation. Next up, folding chairs and tables, go ahead, you and ALL the ai, design something that is easy, self evident, and will eliminate the significant number of people sitting, now, in a hospital waiting area to get a finger looked at. PROVE IT , NOW! Simple eh?, nope !, applied geometry and routine tasks,many thousands of things that are never quite right and need to monitored adjusted, calibrated, repaired, replaced, and reinvented,figured out, explained, trained and everything else!, go ahead, you and AI fix one thing in such a way as to cause total wide spread adoption of your refinement and the worlds little sigh of relief from knowing that something works right, everytime is yours.

Re: People Do Not Yearn for Automation

#59
post #16

Personally, it depends. If I could automate taking the trash out, I would do probably want to do it (not sure though). But what remains when everything is automated ? Well, so far we have been automating many things, and we are still busy working and living as always. It's of course impossible to automate everything - we always have things to do, by necessity by also by choice ; do we really want to be idle and contr…

> But what remains when everything is automated? The answer has been perfectly captured in this czechoslovakian cartoon made in 1984. https://youtu.be/6Mo8gQ89aEA?feature=shared

There is also the film Zardoz.

Re: People Do Not Yearn for Automation

#60
post #49
post #20

I want us to automate food production and distribution. I want us to automate creation of building materials and creation of buildings. I want us to automate power generation, and see the marginal cost of power drop to zero. I want us to automate clean transport. I want us to automate cleaning up the planet.

Beyond the face that these are all already highly automated, this isn't what TFA is saying. People aren't angry there are planting machines or whatever; they're angry they're forced to forego anything you can't put in a DB, like their jobs or the texture of their lives. Ironically, you have a huge case of software brain.

> Beyond the face that these are all already highly automated

Nonsense. To take first two examples:

Power plants may run mostly automatically, but humans decide how/where/when to build new plants, and humans build them. I'll be satisfied when we see 100% automated manufacture, transport, erection, and maintenance of solar farms (or similar) and all associated power storage and transmission.

Humans are still hugely in the loop on food production despite machine assistance, and the current world's systems are hugely wasteful in sharing out food production. I'll be satisfied when we have 100% automated farms, and automated transport and distribution of food such that we use what we've grown efficiently, and no-one can even imagine food shortage ever again.

> they're angry they're forced to forego anything you can't put in a DB, like their jobs or the texture of their lives. Ironically, you have a huge case of software brain.

Maybe you're missing the point.

I'm strongly aligned with this famous-ish tweet: "You know what the biggest problem with pushing all-things-AI is? Wrong direction. I want AI to do my laundry and dishes so that I can do art and writing, not for AI to do my art and writing so that I can do my laundry and dishes."

I just have a vision far beyond laundry and dishes. Automation (with or without AI) offers us a chance of a future utopia. Unfortunately, the current direction seems to be a corporate-owned AI-driven dystopia. I want the Culture, not Robocop.

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