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New unsealed records reveal Amazon's price-fixing tactics, California AG claims

theguardian.com

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Re: New unsealed records reveal Amazon's price-fixing tactics, California AG claims

#51

Post by thaumasiotes »

lelandfe wrote: post #7

If you've ever seen those "Click To Reveal Price" or "Price Only Revealed At Checkout" products online, this here is one reason why. They help businesses keep discounted prices hidden from Amazon's crawlers.

> If you've ever seen those "Click To Reveal Price" or "Price Only Revealed At Checkout" products online, this here is one reason why. They help businesses keep discounted prices hidden from Amazon's crawlers.

That is obviously not a reason why, considering the place where I've seen those listings is Amazon.

Re: New unsealed records reveal Amazon's price-fixing tactics, California AG claims

#52

Post by binarysolo »

mgiampapa wrote: post #49
binarysolo wrote: post #48

Long-time Amazon seller/brand here, so here's the crux of the case: 1. Amazon is a search engine for product 2. It values being the cheapest destination for products (MFN most favored nation clause to sell on their website), and basically will suppress your listings from search if they can find you selling it cheaper elsewhere. 3. Amazon is def one of the more expensive ecom channels to sell, BUT they've got a huge a…

I order from Amazon because of their logistics. For some reason Amazon can ship for free at the same price as the producer's Shopify page that wants to charge me insane shipping because I live in a remote location. Yes, I understand the price fixing is why they aren't selling for less on their own site, but Amazon's superpower is logistics, not years of goodwill and brand loyalty.

I mean, 1-2 day shipping is a huge part of their consumer-first policy, which is why every seller has got to do FBA -- for the longest time until COVID, the algorithm heavily penalized FBM fulfilled by merchant from ranking in the search results.

Once FBA started failing during COVID due to warehouse restrictions + sellers and 3PL third party logistics centers really stepped up did FBM even become a thing (and Amazon smartly gave access to Prime badges for FBM sellers who could deal with stringent shipping times).

IMHO the other big superpower Amazon has is to force sellers to eat returns and provide retroactive refunds when a product gets recalled.

Re: New unsealed records reveal Amazon's price-fixing tactics, California AG claims

#53

Post by ssl-3 »

binarysolo wrote: post #52
mgiampapa wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I order from Amazon because of their logistics. For some reason Amazon can ship for free at the same price as the producer's Shopify page that wants to charge me insane shipping because I live in a remote location. Yes, I understand the price fixing is why they aren't selling for less on their own site, but Amazon's superpower is logistics, not years of goodwill and brand loyalty.

I mean, 1-2 day shipping is a huge part of their consumer-first policy, which is why every seller has got to do FBA -- for the longest time until COVID, the algorithm heavily penalized FBM fulfilled by merchant from ranking in the search results. Once FBA started failing during COVID due to warehouse restrictions + sellers and 3PL third party logistics centers really stepped up did FBM even become a thing (and Amazon…

It can be 1 or 2 day shipping. That's normally what I get at my house in Ohio. But it can also be a lot faster.

I took a trip to Tampa not so long ago for a few days to hang out with an old friend who I don't see very often, and also to help him with a long list of technical stuff around his house. I flew down in cattle class with no luggage, which meant that I didn't get to bring anything in terms of tools or materials. That left me a bit out-of-sorts -- I'm used to having a work truck with me that is full of the tools and stuff that I find useful.

And we got into all kinds of projects. We got a lot actually-finished, and we had a great time doing that stuff together.

But there was a recurring theme: We'd need to buy some widget or other to move forward. So I'd fire up my pocket supercomputer and start looking to see if Home Depot or Best Buy or Wal-Mart or whoever had it locally, and then start to figure out some ideal factor of best price and travel time.

Because that's just what I know how to do. In my life, when I want to get things done today and doing that requires more widgets, then I have to get in the car and drive to the store to get them -- ideally, with a good plan in place first.

And he wasn't having any of that. Over and over again, he'd shut me down and say "No, look. Just order it on Amazon. They'll probably bring it over today."

And over and over again, I'd look on Amazon and: Sure enough. They brought it over today. Sometimes, with 3 different deliveries in a single day as projects progressed and our need for widgets changed shape. Sometimes, late at night.

I don't think we drove anywhere at all while I was down there except to tool around the neighborhood to find some yard sales one morning, and another trip to pick up more liquor and some Chilean sea bass from Costco.

Re: New unsealed records reveal Amazon's price-fixing tactics, California AG claims

#54

Post by pas »

blackjack_ wrote: post #32
vondur wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fascinating. Bork was denied being on the supreme court but his ideas shaped current antitrust laws. It feels a bit like the old Standard Oil argument: It's ok to have a huge market share so long as pricing for goods gets cheaper even if it hurts competition overall. *edited* for grammar.

Yeah. Heather Cox Richardson was arguing about this today, saying that historically the job of the government was to decide that cheaper but gutting a local economy, or cheaper but taking enough market share to be able to heavily raise prices in the future was bad. But due to Bork that capacity of the government to actually help drive good outcomes for the bulk of the population has been gutted.

local small business should offer local specialty, if it's doing the exact same thing as the big business but with higher overhead, then why not find something much more productive for the folks there?

small local economies that are stagnating already for decades are not great for anyone. people who live there are struggling, no upward mobility, anyone a bit more successful leaves, the usual urban rural polarization intensifies, yadda yadda.

obviously one of the big drivers of this is the completely fucked up housing policy. (which itself is driven by public safety and public transit issues.)

education is a close second. then the return to office mandates. the all the discontinuities and disincentives of the braindead wrong implementation of welfare (and other social support/payments).

the real economy deadweight loss is easily 2-3% of GDP (per year of course)

Re: New unsealed records reveal Amazon's price-fixing tactics, California AG claims

#55

Post by jstanley »

binarysolo wrote: post #50
TeMPOraL wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you'd end up with brick and mortar stores doing a lot of showrooming and then online stores gaining the bulk of sales because they're cheaper (because their overhead is low) This is what I see happen in Poland with clothes and electronics stores, but I don't exactly understand what MAP is supposed to be solving here, given that the brick&mortar and on-line stores are literally the same entity/brand, and in case of…

So game-theoretically: if I know the price for an item is the same everywhere, I'll buy it at the place where I see it first (one of the big values of brick and mortar stores). If I know I can go online and it'll be some % cheaper, I'll wait and order it online, defer my gratification for a few days, and end up with a cheaper product. Not sure about Poland, but most B&M brick and mortar stores in the US are distribut…

And how does "click-to-reveal-price" help?

Re: New unsealed records reveal Amazon's price-fixing tactics, California AG claims

#56

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

jstanley wrote: post #55
binarysolo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So game-theoretically: if I know the price for an item is the same everywhere, I'll buy it at the place where I see it first (one of the big values of brick and mortar stores). If I know I can go online and it'll be some % cheaper, I'll wait and order it online, defer my gratification for a few days, and end up with a cheaper product. Not sure about Poland, but most B&M brick and mortar stores in the US are distribut…

And how does "click-to-reveal-price" help?

I believe that it prevents the price from being indexed (by dumb crawlers).

I remember hearing our marketing folks talking about enforcing MAP, at the company I used to work for. That company didn’t have the clout of Amazon, but we did sell premium kit.

For us, it wasn’t about money, as much as we didn’t want to ever be forced to reduce Quality; which included the shopping experience. We were concerned that outlets selling lower-priced kit, also had a worse shopping (and support) experience, which we believed (probably correctly) would reflect on us, and our most favored retailers.

Premium brands are often driven by factors other than just money. Brand reinforcement is a really big deal.

Re: New unsealed records reveal Amazon's price-fixing tactics, California AG claims

#57

Post by trymas »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #47
binarysolo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long-time seller/distributor here -- the main reason for this is mandated by brands, who want to make sure their MAP (minimum advertised price) is respected across all channels. Basically different distribution channels (speciality shops, big box marketplaces, and ecom stores) have very different levels of overhead, so if each channel was allowed to set their own price, you'd end up with brick and mortar stores doing…

> you'd end up with brick and mortar stores doing a lot of showrooming and then online stores gaining the bulk of sales because they're cheaper (because their overhead is low) This is what I see happen in Poland with clothes and electronics stores, but I don't exactly understand what MAP is supposed to be solving here, given that the brick&mortar and on-line stores are literally the same entity/brand, and in case of…

From my short experience with this - manufacturers want to ensure this internationally too. So then same product would cost around the same in Germany and in Poland. Otherwise Germans will check fit of shoes in German B&M store, then go buy it online from some Polish store for X% cheaper.

Manufacturer does not want that, because then it will lose most of it's distributors in Germany.

NB: Though I am not debating if it's right, fair or best for consumer. Just mentioning, what I've experienced.

Re: New unsealed records reveal Amazon's price-fixing tactics, California AG claims

#58

Post by Joker_vD »

binarysolo wrote: post #46
lelandfe wrote: post #7

If you've ever seen those "Click To Reveal Price" or "Price Only Revealed At Checkout" products online, this here is one reason why. They help businesses keep discounted prices hidden from Amazon's crawlers.

Long-time seller/distributor here -- the main reason for this is mandated by brands, who want to make sure their MAP (minimum advertised price) is respected across all channels. Basically different distribution channels (speciality shops, big box marketplaces, and ecom stores) have very different levels of overhead, so if each channel was allowed to set their own price, you'd end up with brick and mortar stores doing…

> if each channel was allowed to set their own price, you'd end up with brick and mortar stores doing a lot of showrooming and then online stores gaining the bulk of sales because they're cheaper (because their overhead is low).

Um... and? That's quite literally "the market working as intended" and while I am not a free-market apologist by any stretch, that seems to be a rather benign effect.

What makes MAP especially suspicious in my eyes is that it's the manufacturers that seem to be overly concerned over well-being of one specific kind of their downstream buyers/distributors/resellers, not those distributors/resellers themselves. I understand that if B&M stores would try to impose that, then the FTC would (hopefully) smack it down pretty quickly but apparently when a manufacturer mandates the price to the resellers, it's perfectly fine? Somehow? Isn't there collusion somewhere in there, probably?

Re: New unsealed records reveal Amazon's price-fixing tactics, California AG claims

#59

Post by cucumber3732842 »

wombatpm wrote: post #39
cucumber3732842 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be like showing up for the battle of Kursk with an M18 battalion. Might go well at first, you might score some big flashy wins, but....ugh... things are gonna get worse as the party goes on and it's generally an ill advised strategy. Rico as written and enforced walks right up to the limit of constitutionality in a dozen ways. It's built for speed. It's never really been thrown into a knock down drag out l…

I’d be ok with civil asset forfeiture for corporate officers

Are you serious? That sort of inequality under the law for people we don't like is literally how we got here, both in terms of civil asset forfeiture as it currently exists and all the precedents that bigco legal teams can leverage to make the law apply differently for them.

"I'd be ok with civil asset forfeiture for drug traffickers/dealers"

-The 1980s equivalent of you

Re: New unsealed records reveal Amazon's price-fixing tactics, California AG claims

#60

Post by jstanley »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #56
jstanley wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how does "click-to-reveal-price" help?

I believe that it prevents the price from being indexed (by dumb crawlers). I remember hearing our marketing folks talking about enforcing MAP, at the company I used to work for. That company didn’t have the clout of Amazon, but we did sell premium kit. For us, it wasn’t about money, as much as we didn’t want to ever be forced to reduce Quality; which included the shopping experience. We were concerned that outlets s…

I literally don't get it.

You're interested in Quality above all else, fine.

You're upset that you have competitors who don't care about Quality, fine.

So you make your website harder to use, so that... what?

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