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NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

grocerydive.com

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Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#51

Post by ceejayoz »

miketery wrote: post #41
ceejayoz wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The USSR has tried this. Lets not. The USSR tried lots of things we do successfully. This is actually something governments have a proven ability to do, at least in some contexts, without becoming a corrupt boondoggle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Commissary_Agency

Yeah it was so successful that people would line up around the block for bananas the one time a year. Or when boots came into the store you'd pick up whatever size you could, as you'd trade later. (true stories)

Again:

> The USSR has tried this. Lets not.

would rule out things like "going to the moon" or "building roads". It's a pretty useless rubric.

I am not doubting the USSR fucked all sorts of things up. I'm doubting that that inherently means those things must be impossible.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#52

Post by asdff »

KK7NIL wrote: post #17
asdff wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Major grocers are more inclined to form cartels on price than to engage in organic competitive action. These businesses are too large and incentives too perverse for free market dynamics to apply anymore.

Those are pretty extraordinary claims with very little evidence. And, even if they are true, the obvious solution would be to enforce the already existing antitrust and competition laws, not to have the government directly engage in commerce.

Too much to write in a HN comment so here is a substack post (1) probably worthy of its own HN post.

And how is that the obvious solution? You see who is in the Whitehouse and you think this is a champion of antitrust and lifting up the little man? Quite the opposite. NYC government is a separate entity than federal government with different limits to its powers. They can't do anything about cartel behavior. They can, however, open a municipal grocery store.

The government engages in commerce all the time. If we took that argument to its logical conclusion there would be no libraries as they compete with book stores. There would be no armies as they compete with Blackrock mercenaries. No public transit as it competes with private transit. No public events as that competes with ticketmaster. No public schools. No public universities. No scientific research grants. No sheltering or feeding the poor. No treating the sick. No treating veterans. No bridges. No roads. No harbors. No anything. What really would be the role of government after we stripped it of all its potential influences on the world of commerce? I can't even imagine what might even be left...

No, it seems a big role in this country for government is facilitating conditions for commerce. Educating the populace such as to upskill the nation's labor pool. Building roads free for businesses to use in transporting goods to market. Treating the sick before they get so ill as to be an undue burden on the medical system that threatens its entire latent capacity. Offering cheaper food seems in line with that. People aren't going to use the spare money to throw into a river; they will use their extra money to circulate back into the economy probably in more productive ways than Kroger buying back its stock or its executives or shareholders squandering it on oysters and boat fuel.

1. https://grocerynerd.substack.com/p/grocery-update-17-how-gro...

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#53

Post by bojan »

koolba wrote: post #11
yohannparis wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does everything needs to be economically viable?

Because that’s what has traditionally allowed western countries to have a wide availability and inventory of goods vs communist economies.

But why does the availability have to be wide? Maybe those stories can do few things, but do them well. Sell staple foods and healthy choices.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#55

Post by jmyeet »

halflife wrote: post #3

This sounds extremely non economically viable. The municipality which has monopoly on land taxes and costs will compete with stores that must pay taxes and rent? Won’t it just cause neighboring stores to close? Won’t a better option be subsidizing taxes for grocery stores, and let the discounts competitively pass unto the customers?

To anyone who espouses these claims that the government isn't capable of anything or that it's somehow a moral hazard I just have to ask: how's that working out for you in particular and society in general? Does it feel like things are going well?

What we have now is the result of unfettered private control. Private companies collude to raise prices and lower wages. The standard of living in real terms has been in decline for over 50 years. Education, medical, housing and food costs continue to spiral. Where we do have publicly owned alternatives, such as with municipal broadband, those publicly-owned alternatives are always far better.

Are we going to make the same argument that EPB in Chattanooga is somehow a moral hazard and has an unfair advantage to Verizon, AT&T, Comcast and Spectrum?

Let's just say that it's true that they do. Why is that a problem? Why is it good that billion or trillion dollar companies can charge higher prices than the government can so their owners can buy another mega-yacht at the expense of the people who depend on that service? Because that's what's going on now.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#56

Post by ck2 »

flats wrote: post #12

I was very skeptical of these plans at first—as a New Yorker, I don’t exactly have a lot of trust in our city’s government to run things well. But I’ve come around. Let’s try something new! Let’s show people that local governments in the United States really are capable of making a difference in their daily lives. If it fails, well, we tried & we’ll keep trying.

"let's try it" is exactly the right attitude

So many conservative states and cities absolutely running things into the ground, making people miserable and oppressed and their cost of living skyrocketing for years, decades, look at Texas look at Florida, so many examples

So why not try something progressive for a change and see what happens?

Why the heck not just try?

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#57

Post by legobmw99 »

energy123 wrote: post #37

Dumb populist idea, grocery stores make 2% margins, best case scenario you're saving people 2%, realistic scenario you introduce operational inefficiencies that the chains already optimized out and waste taxpayer resources. If you don't like grocery stores gamifying or selling junk, regulate those aspects. Or put the taxpayer money towards something useful like building public housing.

You’re not putting a municipal grocery store on the same block as an existing big box and saying “wow, savings!”

Food deserts exist in NYC, and many New Yorkers buy staples at corner stores that charge significantly more than a standard grocery store. Your second paragraph implies that this policy is due to some dislike of existing grocery stores, but that assumes these communities are actually being currently served by grocers at all

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#58

Post by _whiteCaps_ »

gruez wrote: post #14
asdff wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Major grocers are more inclined to form cartels on price than to engage in organic competitive action. These businesses are too large and incentives too perverse for free market dynamics to apply anymore.

>Major grocers are more inclined to form cartels on price than to engage in organic competitive action. Even if we take at face value that this is happening, their margins are famously low (ie. low single digits[1][2]) that any improvements are likely negligible. In the best case scenario where they're run as competently/efficiently as a normal grocery store, but don't take any profits, you'd be saving like 50 cents…

It literally happened here in Canada:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/loblaw-bread-price-settleme...

> The class-action case was brought against a group of companies that includes Loblaw and the Weston companies, Metro, Walmart Canada, Giant Tiger, and Sobeys and its owner, Empire Co. Ltd.

> The plaintiffs allege those companies participated in a 14-year industry-wide price-fixing conspiracy between 2001 and 2015, leading to an artificial increase in packaged bread prices.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#59

Post by ceejayoz »

WalterBright wrote: post #46
ceejayoz wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe they should look into why the closings occurred. Do you think there's no research on the causes of food deserts?

Store closings are nearly always the result of them not being profitable.

Sure. Lots of things governments need to do are unprofitable, like delivering the mail or repairing the roads.

I can go to my local public library, borrow the free books, use the free computers, sit in the free chairs, ask the librarian for free guidance, enjoy the free air conditioning, and even book a free meeting room to meet up with some friends to work on a project.

Profitable? Fuck no. Great to have in my city? Fuck yes.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#60

Post by b112 »

gruez wrote: post #30
ceejayoz wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noe_Valley_public_toilet Mamdani has clearly taken lessons like these to heart. https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/07/nyregion/how-to-build-a-r... "The Transportation Department workers arrived at 9:15 p.m., right on time. Mr. Boyce and his crew were ready, having fitted the roof and rear wall panel 30 minutes before. By Monday, the structure was nearly complete. “This is all like synchro…

Your article doesn't say anything about cost, only that it got built fast. Every time the toilet example gets cited, the punchline is the cost, not how long it took, although that was appalling as well. From the wikipedia article: >The toilet's original proposed cost of $1.7 million inspired media coverage and criticism of the San Francisco government.

Plus, the cost of building includes a lot of permits, inspections, studies, and money to sldo so. Taxes too.

Was all this waived?

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