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Multi-Agentic Software Development Is a Distributed Systems Problem

kirancodes.me

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Re: Multi-Agentic Software Development Is a Distributed Systems Problem

#51
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, what's your point? That is literally what it does - it adds relevant knowledge to the prompt before generating a response, in order to ground it me effectively.

My point is that this doesn't scale. You want the LLM to have knowledge embedded in its weights, not prompted in.

It scales fine if done correctly.

Even with the weights the extra context allows it to move to the correct space.

Much the same as humans there are terms that are meaningless without knowing the context.

Re: Multi-Agentic Software Development Is a Distributed Systems Problem

#52

I've been running a multi-agent software development pipeline for a while now and I've reached the same conclusion: it's a distributed systems problem. My approach has been more pragmatic than theoretical: I break work into sequential stages (plan, design, code) with verification gates. Each gate has deterministic checks (compile, lint, etc) and an agentic reviewer for qualitative assessment. Collectively, this looks…

Exactly this. I'm writing my own little orchestrator and memory system and because I have a modest number of workflows, I'm taking the time to specify them deterministically, describe them as a DAG (with goto's for the inevitable loops) and generate deternministic orchestration code. I'm trying to make most of the tool calls as clear and comprehensive as possible (don't make Opus convert a PDF, have a script do that and give it the text instead) and I'm putting all the things you'd expect to track state and assume ~20% task failure rate so I can simply wipe and repeat failed tasks.

Small model and (where still required) human in the loop steps for deterministic workflows can solve a surprisingly large number of problems and don't depend on the models to be consistent or not to fail.

Just invest heavily in adversarial agents and quality gates and apply transforms on intermediate artifacts that can be validated for some dimensions of quality to minimize drift.

Re: Multi-Agentic Software Development Is a Distributed Systems Problem

#53
post #40

There is not a single mention of probability in this post. The post acts like agents are a highly complex but well-specified deterministic function. Perhaps, under certain temperature limits, this is approximately true ... but that's a serious restriction and glossed over. For instance, perhaps the most striking constraint about FLP is that it is about deterministic consensus ... the post glazes over this: > establis…

It really depends on your model in my opinion.

At the lowest level of abstraction, LLMs are just matrix multiplication. Deterministic functions of their inputs. Of course, we can argue on the details and specifics of how the peculiarities of inference in practice lead to non-deterministic behaviours but now our model is being complicated by vague aspects of reality.

One convenient way of sidestepping these is to model them as random functions, sure. I wouldn't go as far to say they are "inherently stochastic creatures". Maybe that's the case, but you haven't really given substantial evidence to justify that claim.

At a higher level of abstraction, one possible model of llms is as deterministic functions of their inputs again, but now as functions of token streams or higher abstractions like sentences rather than the underlying matrix multiplication. In this case again we expect llms to produce roughly consistent outputs given the same prompt. In this case, again, we can apply deterministic theorems.

I guess my central claim is that there hasn't been a salient argument made as to why the randomness here is relevant for consensus. Maybe the models exhibit some variability in their output, but in practice does this substantially change how they approach consensus? Can we model this as artefacts of how they are initialised rather than some inherent stochasticity? Why not? It feels like randomness is being introduced here as a sort of magic "get out of jail" free card here.

Just my two cents I suppose.

Re: Multi-Agentic Software Development Is a Distributed Systems Problem

#54
post #40

There is not a single mention of probability in this post. The post acts like agents are a highly complex but well-specified deterministic function. Perhaps, under certain temperature limits, this is approximately true ... but that's a serious restriction and glossed over. For instance, perhaps the most striking constraint about FLP is that it is about deterministic consensus ... the post glazes over this: > establis…

It really depends on your model in my opinion. At the lowest level of abstraction, LLMs are just matrix multiplication. Deterministic functions of their inputs. Of course, we can argue on the details and specifics of how the peculiarities of inference in practice lead to non-deterministic behaviours but now our model is being complicated by vague aspects of reality. One convenient way of sidestepping these is to mode…

LLMs utilize categorical distributions defined by the logits computed by the matrix multiplies, and there are many sampling strategies which are employed. This is one of the core mechanisms for token generation.

There's no peculiarity to discuss, that's how they work. That's how they are trained (the loss is defined by probabilistic density computations), that's how inference works, etc.

> I guess my central claim is that there hasn't been a salient argument made as to why the randomness here is relevant for consensus. Maybe the models exhibit some variability in their output, but in practice does this substantially change how they approach consensus? Can we model this as artefacts of how they are initialised rather than some inherent stochasticity? Why not? It feels like randomness is being introduced here as a sort of magic "get out of jail" free card here.

I'm really surprised to hear this given the content of the post. The claims in the post are quite strong, yet here I need to give a counterargument to why the claim about consensus applying to pseudorandom processes is relevant?

I don't think it's necessary to furnish a counterexample when pointing out when a formal claim is overreaching. It's not clear what the results are in this case! So it feels premature to claim that results cover a wider array of things than shown?

For instance, this is a strong claim:

> it means that in any multi-agentic system, irrespective of how smart the agents are, they will never be able to guarantee that they are able to do both at the same time: > > Be Safe - i.e produce well formed software satisfying the user's specification. > Be Live - i.e always reach consensus on the final software module.

I'm confused as to the stance, we're either hand-waving, or we're not -- so which is it?

Re: Multi-Agentic Software Development Is a Distributed Systems Problem

#55
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends on your model in my opinion. At the lowest level of abstraction, LLMs are just matrix multiplication. Deterministic functions of their inputs. Of course, we can argue on the details and specifics of how the peculiarities of inference in practice lead to non-deterministic behaviours but now our model is being complicated by vague aspects of reality. One convenient way of sidestepping these is to mode…

LLMs utilize categorical distributions defined by the logits computed by the matrix multiplies, and there are many sampling strategies which are employed. This is one of the core mechanisms for token generation. There's no peculiarity to discuss, that's how they work. That's how they are trained (the loss is defined by probabilistic density computations), that's how inference works, etc. > I guess my central claim is…

Re — totally fine with hand-waving for intuition.

I just came away from the read thinking that this post was pointing to something very strong and was a bit irked to find that the state of results was more subtle than the post conveys it.

Re: Multi-Agentic Software Development Is a Distributed Systems Problem

#56
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends on your model in my opinion. At the lowest level of abstraction, LLMs are just matrix multiplication. Deterministic functions of their inputs. Of course, we can argue on the details and specifics of how the peculiarities of inference in practice lead to non-deterministic behaviours but now our model is being complicated by vague aspects of reality. One convenient way of sidestepping these is to mode…

LLMs utilize categorical distributions defined by the logits computed by the matrix multiplies, and there are many sampling strategies which are employed. This is one of the core mechanisms for token generation. There's no peculiarity to discuss, that's how they work. That's how they are trained (the loss is defined by probabilistic density computations), that's how inference works, etc. > I guess my central claim is…

If you're pushing me, let's say we're not hand waving then. LLMs, abstraction removed, are deterministic computations of matrix-multiplication, f(x) -> y. If you want, we can make them pseudo-random, but thus still a deterministic process. FLP then holds. I'm not sure what your confusion is.

Re: Multi-Agentic Software Development Is a Distributed Systems Problem

#57
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that this doesn't scale. You want the LLM to have knowledge embedded in its weights, not prompted in.

It scales fine if done correctly. Even with the weights the extra context allows it to move to the correct space. Much the same as humans there are terms that are meaningless without knowing the context.

Would it be possible to make GPT3 from GPT2 just by prompting? It doesn't work/scale

Re: Multi-Agentic Software Development Is a Distributed Systems Problem

#58
Interesting read!

Agreed on the main claim that multi-agentic software development is a distributed systems problem, however I think the distributed consensus point is not the tightest current bottleneck in practice.

The article mentions the Partial Synchronous model (DLS) but doesn't develop it, and that's the usual escape hatch against FLP. In practical agentic workflows it's already showing up as looped improvement cycles bounded by diminishing returns. Each iteration is effectively a round, and each agent's output in that round is a potentially faulty proposal the next round refines. Painful in cost yes, but manageable. If models continue to improve at current rates, I think it's reasonable to assume the number of cycles will decrease.

The more interesting objection is that "agent misinterprets prompt" isn't really byzantine. The 3f+1 bound assumes independent faults, but LLM agents share weights, training data, and priors. When a prompt is ambiguous they don't drift in random directions, they drift the same way together. That isn't majority vote failing loudly, it's consensus succeeding on a shared bias, which is arguably worse.

Re: Multi-Agentic Software Development Is a Distributed Systems Problem

#59
post #20

The fundamental assumptions of distributed systems is having multiple machines that fail independently, communicate over unreliable networks and have no shared clock has the consequence of needing to solve consensus, byzantine faults, ordering, consistency vs. availability and exactly-once delivery. However, AI agents don't share these problems in the classical sense. Building agents is about context attention, relev…

Curious idea (found your hn post) but cant figure out what the use case is..

Endless, we offer SemQL to query in high-dim space using distance, direction and contrast predicates. It enables anyone to retrieve events that align with a predicate in global vector space.

Re: Multi-Agentic Software Development Is a Distributed Systems Problem

#60

My workflow uses a thorough design broken down into very specific tasks, agent mail, and a swarm of agents in a ralph loop to burn down tasks. Agents collaborate with mail pretty well and don't seem to need layers of supervision. If the tasks are well specified and your design is thought through, especially how to ensure the agents can self-validate - it seems to work pretty well. I wrote an article on this if you're…

Zawinski’s Law in action
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